WI Union-busting provisions added in budget committee

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

The GOP Governors union-busting agenda is being implemented in multiple states, and I'm quite happy to help people in those states fight the removal of individual freedom.

Unions are an example of individual freedom?

Not in the real world

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Unions are an example of individual freedom?

Not in the real world

No. The right to unionize is a freedom. Being taken away by some.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of unions.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

No. The right to unionize is a freedom. Being taken away by some.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of unions.

And for public employees it should be taken away. Public servant unions are nothing but political bodies. This wasn't the intent of allowing workers to be protected. There are a myriad of rules and laws that already protect these workers.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And for public employees it should be taken away. Public servant unions are nothing but political bodies. This wasn't the intent of allowing workers to be protected. There are a myriad of rules and laws that already protect these workers.

I have no problem with public employees being unionized. It helps protect them from patronage, for example.

It's funny, my entire life both political parties praised teachers, talking about how they are the epitome of dedication to this country, how they are never paid enough for the tough and important job they do ... and this election season the Republicans are demonizing them. Sad. Well, I guess somebody has to pay for the GOP tax cuts to businesses, and demonizing unions is at the top of this election season's RGA playbook.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I have no problem with public employees being unionized. It helps protect them from patronage, for example.

It's funny, my entire life both political parties praised teachers, talking about how they are the epitome of dedication to this country, how they are never paid enough for the tough and important job they do ... and this election season the Republicans are demonizing them. Sad. Well, I guess somebody has to pay for the GOP tax cuts to businesses, and demonizing unions is at the top of this election season's RGA playbook.

lol

No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

I have no issues with teachers and there is no question that they are a vital cog in our society but seriously the more cash we pour into the education system, the worse the results are. How anyone of any political affiliation can't see this and cant see what the bureaucratic mess created by the teachers unions has done is blind.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

lol
No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

And anyone who can't appreciate how teachers unions have kept people in teaching, classrooms a manageable size, etc. isn't looking very hard.

Good and bad to teachers unions, but remember that they don't dictate or bargain alone. Have to hold the other signers of the contracts equally responsible if something bad is there.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

Just reading those newly-created Republican words off the playsheet?

If tax cuts help "job creators", 2000-2008 would have been a huge economic boom. It was a disaster. As the tax cuts during Reagan were.

Facts have a liberal bias.

[Danzig]

teachers unions pushed smaller class size, saying that would help...all that did was put more dues into the union, it certainly didn't change test scores.
unions are a business, and of course their number one concern is making money.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

And anyone who can't appreciate how teachers unions have kept people in teaching, classrooms a manageable size, etc. isn't looking very hard.

Good and bad to teachers unions, but remember that they don't dictate or bargain alone. Have to hold the other signers of the contracts equally responsible if something bad is there.



Just reading those newly-created Republican words off the playsheet?

If tax cuts help "job creators", 2000-2008 would have been a huge economic boom. It was a disaster. As the tax cuts during Reagan were.

Facts have a liberal bias.

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

Are we now denying that businesses create jobs? Or tax increases help create jobs (non government version)?

Lets not kid ourselves into why teachers unions heavily favor Democrats, the simple selling off of our education system for votes.

And acting as if Democrats and unions have real negotiations is laughable. Sadly GOP pols have gotten brow beaten for years into concessions for teachers unions. You know the mock outrage "the poor kids!" bs.

The idea that teachers unions are trying to make the education of children a priority is a sad joke as many districts are forced to cut program for the students to ensure that they can pay for lavish benefits negotiated by unions. Such as in NY a public school teacher only has to work 120 of 160 days. What other job do you work 10 months of the year, no weekends and get paid full time to work 75% of the schedule? If a student took as many days off as teachers are allowed they would be considered a truant.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

LOL - I think you need to look up the definitions of the words you use before you try to use them in desperation where it really doesn't apply.

I am talking about two specific people: David Prosser, who is old, has a documented history of public anger, and is white; and John McCain, who is old, has a documented history of public anger, and is white.

Two old angry white guys.

yeah right

I'm going to start refering to Obama as that black guy in office. I mean he is black, and he is in office, so there's nothing wrong with that.

[Clip-Clop]

Unions are a racket. Teachers union is the worst of the lot. I grew up in NJ, if you knew what it is really like there now, "a great school system"(a system that is reliant on it's history from the 70's and 80's) is all I hear from my friends with kids as to why they are still living there. It is nonsense, I have friends and family that are teachers in NJ, good teachers who would do anything to get out of the union that rewards mediocrity the same way it does excellence. Sadly this seems to be the curriculum these days too so I guess it makes sense.

That is a recipe for success, right?

"Mo' money, mo' problems" right Newark?

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

Are we now denying that businesses create jobs? Or tax increases help create jobs (non government version)?

Lets not kid ourselves into why teachers unions heavily favor Democrats, the simple selling off of our education system for votes.

And acting as if Democrats and unions have real negotiations is laughable. Sadly GOP pols have gotten brow beaten for years into concessions for teachers unions. You know the mock outrage "the poor kids!" bs.

The idea that teachers unions are trying to make the education of children a priority is a sad joke as many districts are forced to cut program for the students to ensure that they can pay for lavish benefits negotiated by unions. Such as in NY a public school teacher only has to work 120 of 160 days. What other job do you work 10 months of the year, no weekends and get paid full time to work 75% of the schedule? If a student took as many days off as teachers are allowed they would be considered a truant.

this is shocking to me. I grew up the child of teachers and they never were close to being allowed to take 40 personal days in a year. That simply didn't exist as an option and teacher unions existed in Ohio. They received no lavish benefits ever. My father did eventually go into administration which I guess is an evil unto itself which I am unaware of too much. In those positions he worked 12 months a year non-stop with very little vacation at all. He did have the luxury of dying quite young, so unfortunately didn't get to reap the benefits of all those other "lavish benefits" of which you speak and I as a child of public educators have no clue as to what you are talking about. I am glad to know that my parents are part of a group largely responsible for the decline of America. I take pride in that.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Unions are a racket. Teachers union is the worst of the lot. I grew up in NJ, if you knew what it is really like there now, "a great school system"(a system that is reliant on it's history from the 70's and 80's) is all I hear from my friends with kids as to why they are still living there. It is nonsense, I have friends and family that are teachers in NJ, good teachers who would do anything to get out of the union that rewards mediocrity the same way it does excellence. Sadly this seems to be the curriculum these days too so I guess it makes sense.

That is a recipe for success, right?

"Mo' money, mo' problems" right Newark?

There are usually two sides to every story. For all the evils unions do, there is the opposite side that they have done some good too. Still. Tenure keeps just as many great teachers going as pathetic ones, and getting rid of it would have just as many great teachers getting fired for no good reason as pathetic ones getting fired for good reason.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

lol

No one knocks teachers but anyone who can't see the damage done to the education system by teachers unions just isnt looking very hard.

What is sad is tying tax cuts to businesses to teachers unions. Hardworking, job creators are suddenly the bad guys and fatcat union bosses are the good guys.

I have no issues with teachers and there is no question that they are a vital cog in our society but seriously the more cash we pour into the education system, the worse the results are. How anyone of any political affiliation can't see this and cant see what the bureaucratic mess created by the teachers unions has done is blind.

I should have read this post first!!

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

this is shocking to me. I grew up the child of teachers and they never were close to being allowed to take 40 personal days in a year. That simply didn't exist as an option and teacher unions existed in Ohio. They received no lavish benefits ever. My father did eventually go into administration which I guess is an evil unto itself which I am unaware of too much. In those positions he worked 12 months a year non-stop with very little vacation at all. He did have the luxury of dying quite young, so unfortunately didn't get to reap the benefits of all those other "lavish benefits" of which you speak and I as a child of public educators have no clue as to what you are talking about. I am glad to know that my parents are part of a group largely responsible for the decline of America. I take pride in that.

I guess they should have moved to NY

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

I should have read this post first!!

Where is the happy medium?? You can't put ZERO money into the education system can you?? What public schools are expected to do is unfathomable. They must take every single child no questions asked which charter/private schools don't have to do. It's nearly impossible to get perfect public schools. If you look at some of the kids in the system, it's a tough task. Yes, it can get better, but using standardized test as the only measure of success as is currently being done, it makes it very, very tough.

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL
Who suggested putting zero into education? The amount of money keeps increasing yet the quality of education keeps decreasing. I guess we should just blame the kids?

One of the big problems with teachers unions like ACT and NEA is they derive clout from delivering their members votes and from the massive amounts of money they collect in dues. They block reform which obviously is much needed. The NEA employs more political organizers than the Democratic and Republican parties combined. Yeah they are interested in the kids.

In NYC in 2006-2007 there were 10 teachers fired out of over 55000 tenured. The average cost to fire an tenured teacher in NY is in excess of $128,000 due to the legal challenges from the teachers unions regardless of the much the teacher in question deserved to lose their job.

In Chicago where only 28.5% of 11th graders met or exceeded expectations on state standardized tests less than .01% of teachers between 2005 and 2008 were fired for poor performance.

In NYC the city spends more than $100 million a year paying teachers that arent currently teaching. The union contract requires that any teacher with tenure be paid their full salary and benefits if they are sent to the “Absent Teacher Reserve pool. The average pay of a teacher in that pool? $82,000 a year. Some of the teachers have been in the pool since 2006.

In a 2007 report, the nonprofit Education Sector found that nearly 19 percent of all public education spending in America goes towards things like seniority-based pay increases and outsized benefits. If these provisions were done away with, the report found, $77 billion in education money would be freed up for initiatives that could actually improve learning, like paying high-performing teachers more money.

Absent Teachers Reserve Pool....is that like those rooms set up for the Autoworkers?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your version of facts is funny as you take a single point and twist whatever argument you want out of it.

LOL - My only "point" is that your blatant blaming of unions for everything bad doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It's just the current Republican political fad, so they have someone to blame (you know, teachers, firemen and policemen have ruined this country, right?) so they can have someone pay for financing more of their tax cuts to business.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker said the unions needed to make sacrifices to help balance the budget. The unions immediately agreed to those sacrifices. The unions proactively helped balance the budget.

Walker busted the unions anyway. It's all about creating false blame and hate. Not reality.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

yeah right

I'm going to start refering to Obama as that black guy in office. I mean he is black, and he is in office, so there's nothing wrong with that.

Again, I think you need to go read the definitions of the two words you used. Because you, above, are still using them incorrectly.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

LOL - My only "point" is that your blatant blaming of unions for everything bad doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It's just the current Republican political fad, so they have someone to blame (you know, teachers, firemen and policemen have ruined this country, right?) so they can have someone pay for financing more of their tax cuts to business.

For example, in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker said the unions needed to make sacrifices to help balance the budget. The unions immediately agreed to those sacrifices. The unions proactively helped balance the budget.

Walker busted the unions anyway. It's all about creating false blame and hate. Not reality.

Unions have always been SO willing to sacrifice for the common good. You arent running for political office so why not acknowledge that there is a massive difference between the individuals that belong to a union (most of the time have no choice in the matter) and the union itself.

Again acting as if unions havent abused their position and become something that they weren't intended to when created is myopic or just wrong.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Riot

Again, I think you need to go read the definitions of the two words you used. Because you, above, are still using them incorrectly.

I used them exactly the same as you did. I am only talking about one specific person. That hip-hop listening, basketball playin' black man in office.