unions killing jobs...

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

45k is entry level. higher than entry level at a lot of jobs

How does it relate to jobs requiring 4 years of college and state certification?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Let's compare teacher salaries after 15 years experience, compared to GDP, okay? Who pays experienced teachers more than the United States, adjusted to GDP? (which means their salary is comparatively higher in their country compared to this country)

Korea
Germany
Portugal
Japan
Scotland
New Zealand
Switzerland
Mexico
Spain
England
Czech Republic
Turkey
Slovenia
Ireland
Belgium (FI)
Australia
Greece
Netherlands
Belgium (Fr)
Denmark
Chile
Finland
Austria
Italy
France
United States

Who pays more than the United States, in straight unadjusted teachers salary after 15 years experience?

Luxemburg
Korea
Switzerland
Germany
Ireland
Japan
Scotland
England
Netherlands
Australia
United States

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...und-the-world/

how many of those countries' schools go all year, not part year like us?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

how many of those countries' schools go all year, not part year like us?

I don't know. I'm too depressed for the teachers in my family after that.

[Cannon Shell]

Teachers and autoworkers unions are almost purely political organiations now. They still fleece as much as possible but mainly to add more money to their own account.

Comparing the US to countries like Luxemborg is silly. When adjusted for GDP of course we will look worse.

The idea that Mexican teachers make more money than our teachers is funny. I had a guy working for me as a groom a few years ago from Mexico that was great at fixing stuff around the barn. I asked him what he did in Mexico. He said he worked as an electrician for the power company. I asked him why he was here since that job sounded like it should pay pretty well. He said he made about $125 a week there (which he thought was ok) but the real reason he quit was that sometimes when they were on the poles if too many people called to complain about power being off, the supervisors would turn the power back on. A guess a couple ofhis coworkers got zapped. He made around $450 a week here. So if skilled electricians were making $125 a week in an extremely dangerous job I'm doubting that Mexican teacjers are making out really well.

The idea that 45k as an entry level salary is not good in most area's of the country is laughable.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

thing is, although unions aren't 'killing jobs' in the case that chuck cited, they are most definitely in the wrong. the tack they are taking that boeing is in the wrong for starting up another plant is absolutely ridiculous. but, their position is that if it's non union, it's bad is ridiculous.

Uh if the unions prevail here how doesnt it kill all the jobs that the new factory would have added?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The idea that 45k as an entry level salary is not good in most area's of the country is laughable.

Promulgating the idea that unions are responsible for financially destroying this country is beyond absurd.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh if the unions prevail here how doesnt it kill all the jobs that the new factory would have added?

Boeing Dreamliner delays: years of bad management and outsourcing

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/01/...-goes-too-far/

Specifically, did Boeing outsource too much of the Dreamliner's components to other companies in other countries? Will the 787's outsourcing problems persist? And what might this mean for airlines, passengers and investors in Boeing stock? The short answers are: yes, probably, and it's too early to tell.

Yeah, American companies should complain about evil American unions, and outsource like hell until the GOP can take over completely and remove "inhibitors to job creation": like minimum wage restrictions, child labor laws, having to pay overtime, and workplace safety rules, so it's "reasonable" to return jobs to the United States.

Of course, they'll never be able to remove those "inhibitors to job creation" until they bust the unions up and get them the hell out of the way so they can overturn 100 years of worker rights. How can we do that? Oh, yeah! Blame the unions for the financial disasters caused by Wall Street and large corporate selfish irresponsibility!

"The United States of America - Race To The Bottom, Embracing Third World Status"

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Boeing Dreamliner delays: years of bad management and outsourcing

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/01/...-goes-too-far/



Yeah, American companies should complain about evil American unions, and outsource like hell until the GOP can take over completely and remove "inhibitors to job creation": like minimum wage restrictions, child labor laws, having to pay overtime, and workplace safety rules, so it's "reasonable" to return jobs to the United States.

Of course, they'll never be able to remove those "inhibitors to job creation" until they bust the unions up and get them the hell out of the way so they can overturn 100 years of worker rights. How can we do that? Oh, yeah! Blame the unions for the financial disasters caused by Wall Street and large corporate selfish irresponsibility!

"The United States of America - Race To The Bottom, Embracing Third World Status"

You can only yell "fire" so many times,Riot!....but I kinda like that last line...

[jms62]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

You can only yell "fire" so many times,Riot!....but I kinda like that last line...

She is 100% correct on the last line. You have been outta the workplace FAR FAR too long. I still shake my head in disbelief knowing you are on SSI and seeing you 100% behind those that are all willing to take it away. I really hope they dont even as i write a fat check to cover my own disability insurance.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh if the unions prevail here how doesnt it kill all the jobs that the new factory would have added?

i think i misplaced a comma in what you quoted. i meant it to say you can't make a blanket statement, but in this case, obviously jobs would be killed. that the union is in the wrong.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

She is 100% correct on the last line. You have been outta the workplace FAR FAR too long. I still shake my head in disbelief knowing you are on SSI and seeing you 100% behind those that are all willing to take it away. I really hope they dont even as i write a fat check to cover my own disability insurance.

The problem is that just being on the other side of an issue doesn't make your side right. The idea that all corporations are evil is as wrong as the idea that all unions are bad. But the huge multinational corps that everyone bitches about have to stay competitive in an ever increasingly competitive global market. Some of the other countries that people like Riot praise routinely break trade treaty language and fund private companies with gov't money which makes all those cushy benefits and vacationtime a lot easier for those foreign companies to dole out. Look at Airbus versus Boeing in a little more depth and you'll see what I am talking about. We still can't forget that the corporate tax rate in the US is the highest of the supposed 1st world countries despite all the hand wringing about certain companies supposedly paying no taxes.

Not every union is a bad one. Unions that cover workers in dangerous jobs are still relevant. But you have to have extremely rose tinted glasses to defend the routine practices of the nations teachers unions and some of the other completely politicalized unions. Acting as though you are knocking the teaching profession when you point out the lunacy of thier unions positions is like me taking offense as a horseman when people knock the TOC for raising the takeout. Silly.

The problem is that like every other situation nowdays there is a whole bunch of complex issues that most people just don't know about or understand...however the big labor unions really aren't that complicated. They believe in scorched earth policy and the furtherence of their own political clout. When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Promulgating the idea that unions are responsible for financially destroying this country is beyond absurd.

Who said the country is financially destroyed?

[Danzig]

are unions the ultimate evil? no. are there abuses, just like with every other business? absolutely.

thing is, a union is ultimately a business, just like any other. they seek to make money, turn a profit. in my opinion, they are akin to churches. they started with a good purpose, but they're only worried about the bottom line at this point.

union membership has been on the decline for years. in the last year or so, the majority of union membership is now from the public sector rather than private. they are kicking and clawing to remain a viable entity. but many of their ideas aren't so much a good thing for the employee, as a good thing for themselves.

we aren't in the condition we are in because of unions-but many corporations bottom lines have been affected by union practices over the years. the automakers are a perfect example. retirement packages and layoff procedures are like nothing found anywhere else. ultimately pensions became too big a burden, much like what the usps is now facing. or schools.

my husband is in a union, has been for close to 15 years-more for self-preservation than anything. sorry, that union is a joke. they gave up the right to strike years ago, which is really the only power a union has in its arsenal. it's as useful at this point as a gelding in a breeding shed. contract negotiations went swimmingly in both contract talks since koch purchased, with no reason to argue over any company offers. but to read about unions and viewpoints, you'd think it was so awful without them. certainly not in this case!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is that just being on the other side of an issue doesn't make your side right. The idea that all corporations are evil is as wrong as the idea that all unions are bad. But the huge multinational corps that everyone bitches about have to stay competitive in an ever increasingly competitive global market. Some of the other countries that people like Riot praise routinely break trade treaty language and fund private companies with gov't money which makes all those cushy benefits and vacationtime a lot easier for those foreign companies to dole out. Look at Airbus versus Boeing in a little more depth and you'll see what I am talking about. We still can't forget that the corporate tax rate in the US is the highest of the supposed 1st world countries despite all the hand wringing about certain companies supposedly paying no taxes.

Not every union is a bad one. Unions that cover workers in dangerous jobs are still relevant. But you have to have extremely rose tinted glasses to defend the routine practices of the nations teachers unions and some of the other completely politicalized unions. Acting as though you are knocking the teaching profession when you point out the lunacy of thier unions positions is like me taking offense as a horseman when people knock the TOC for raising the takeout. Silly.

The problem is that like every other situation nowdays there is a whole bunch of complex issues that most people just don't know about or understand...however the big labor unions really aren't that complicated. They believe in scorched earth policy and the furtherence of their own political clout. When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

i don't know really that unions do much in a dangerous setting. with osha regs, state safety regs, the union doesn't provide much in that regard.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think i misplaced a comma in what you quoted. i meant it to say you can't make a blanket statement, but in this case, obviously jobs would be killed. that the union is in the wrong.

But you can make a blanket statement because most unions would rather kill non-union jobs if given the opportunity. Like politicians their own survival is more important to them than common good. Hey I understand why they are taking that position but it doesn't mean I agree with it or condone it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't know really that unions do much in a dangerous setting. with osha regs, state safety regs, the union doesn't provide much in that regard.

Unions are one of the main reasons those groups are around and so many safety regulations were passed. Of course some regulations are getting to be overkill and unncessary but that is not the point here.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But you can make a blanket statement because most unions would rather kill non-union jobs if given the opportunity. Like politicians their own survival is more important to them than common good. Hey I understand why they are taking that position but it doesn't mean I agree with it or condone it.

yeah, i think they would. but if they all wouldn't all the time, that's where i say you can't make a blanket statement...we all know how pesky saying all, or none, or always can be.
what i don't get is a situation like the teachers the other day(in wi, or mi?), who voted to keep their current scheme in place, rather than pay extra for their retirement-which mean some of their laid off fellow teachers would remain laid off. that can't be what the union wanted-laid off union members don't pay dues!
now, why do they want teachers to pay a portion of their retirement? because the pension system in place is becoming untenable, much like with the usps, uaw, etc, etc. another example of people going broke, when small changes can be made now, to avoid big problems later. the teachers were unwilling to do so, so the pain is felt by their former fellow teachers, who are now unemployed. way to take care of their union brothers.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Unions are one of the main reasons those groups are around and so many safety regulations were passed. Of course some regulations are getting to be overkill and unncessary but that is not the point here.

that is true. which is why so many think that unions are so great now, because they served great purposes then.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

http://news.yahoo.com/afl-cio-seeks-...183549227.html



"Many union leaders are frustrated that their money has not bought more meaningful support for the union agenda in Congress"

Just like every other lobbying group in DC, right?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is that just being on the other side of an issue doesn't make your side right. The idea that all corporations are evil is as wrong as the idea that all unions are bad. But the huge multinational corps that everyone bitches about have to stay competitive in an ever increasingly competitive global market. Some of the other countries that people like Riot praise routinely break trade treaty language and fund private companies with gov't money which makes all those cushy benefits and vacationtime a lot easier for those foreign companies to dole out. Look at Airbus versus Boeing in a little more depth and you'll see what I am talking about. We still can't forget that the corporate tax rate in the US is the highest of the supposed 1st world countries despite all the hand wringing about certain companies supposedly paying no taxes.

Not every union is a bad one. Unions that cover workers in dangerous jobs are still relevant. But you have to have extremely rose tinted glasses to defend the routine practices of the nations teachers unions and some of the other completely politicalized unions. Acting as though you are knocking the teaching profession when you point out the lunacy of thier unions positions is like me taking offense as a horseman when people knock the TOC for raising the takeout. Silly.

The problem is that like every other situation nowdays there is a whole bunch of complex issues that most people just don't know about or understand...however the big labor unions really aren't that complicated. They believe in scorched earth policy and the furtherence of their own political clout. When those policies result in problems, just blame the rich guys, evil corporations and the GOP. It seems like Riot has adopted the same tactics but she adds in GOP governors and any GOP female politician as well.

As opposed to big business who believe in a scoched earth policy vis a vis the US Economy and the jobs that fuel that economy when they ship jobs overseas to meet their short term goals of their Execs so their stock options are in the money and they can cash out now without any thought to the destruction they are wreaking on future generations. Lets give em a pass because by golly they need to be competitive in this Global Economy.