Lakers trade

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, that is what we would find out. Lets look at who New Orleans was actually getting:

Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic, and a 1st rounder in 2012. That core is not a 500 team. Scola can't guard anyone, Odom is pretty good, but he is more a sidekick guy, not a leader, Martin is a black hole that improved Sacramento by leaving, and Dragic a servicaeble backup PG. How are you going to market that team to a prospective new owner?

I would contend that any new owner would rather come in not saddled with some of those contracts. I wouldn't pay Kevin Martin 10 million for the next two years, let alone 25 million. Luis Scola is signed for 10 million per through 2015. Who would want that? I'd rather sign a bunch of scrubs for a year and get the lottery balls. There is a reason Houston is dumping Martin after a partial season and Scola to get only Gasol...they are bad investments at the price.

LOL

There is a mininum and they arent close to it. There are no lottery balls, there is lottery ball. And based on some of the recent drafts there are a lot of high picks who wish they were as good as Luis Scola or Kevin Martin.

Your argument is ignoring the reality that they have to spend 49 million a year minimum. The cap is estimated at 58 million and teams are now required to spend 85%. How do you suppose they get to $49 million this year or next especially after you erase Paul's 17 million?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Well, that is what we would find out. Lets look at who New Orleans was actually getting:

Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic, and a 1st rounder in 2012. That core is not a 500 team. Scola can't guard anyone, Odom is pretty good, but he is more a sidekick guy, not a leader, Martin is a black hole that improved Sacramento by leaving, and Dragic a servicaeble backup PG. How are you going to market that team to a prospective new owner?

I would contend that any new owner would rather come in not saddled with some of those contracts. I wouldn't pay Kevin Martin 10 million for the next two years, let alone 25 million. Luis Scola is signed for 10 million per through 2015. Who would want that? I'd rather sign a bunch of scrubs for a year and get the lottery balls. There is a reason Houston is dumping Martin after a partial season and Scola to get only Gasol...they are bad investments at the price.

And when you got the lottery balls you'd get the chance to overpay young, unproven players. In the grand scheme of things how many contracts are actually good investments...5% maybe?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

LOL

There is a mininum and they arent close to it. There are no lottery balls, there is lottery ball. And based on some of the recent drafts there are a lot of high picks who wish they were as good as Luis Scola or Kevin Martin.

Your argument is ignoring the reality that they have to spend 49 million a year minimum. The cap is estimated at 58 million and teams are now required to spend 85%. How do you suppose they get to $49 million this year or next especially after you erase Paul's 17 million?

They can certainly do better than paying Martin and Scola, that is for sure. Guys like Martin and Scola aren't selling tickets, and they aren't winning games. What exactly is the upside? If you are going to lose, lose it paying the minimum with short term contracts. They can always just pay a tax if they don't reach the minimum, right?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

And when you got the lottery balls you'd get the chance to overpay young, unproven players. In the grand scheme of things how many contracts are actually good investments...5% maybe?

They aren't as a whole, but the ones that are usually are younger guys under the rookie scale. Maybe it is just me, but give me young, unproven guys over proven guys that win nothing every single time.

As I said before, being mediocre in the NBA gets you nothing but more mediocrity. It has been going on for decades. Teams get good by spending on superstars (good ones) or getting lucky in the draft. You don't get lucking drafting 15th.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

And when you got the lottery balls you'd get the chance to overpay young, unproven players. In the grand scheme of things how many contracts are actually good investments...5% maybe?

They were even getting another 1st rounder in the deal so they would have 2 next year. The (Knicks) pick will be around #20 or so which means a pretty reasonable deal.

The reason why I hated the Knicks/Carmello deal last year was because the Knicks gave up every possible trade chip they had when they could have waited Anthony out and got everything. Sure he would have bitched about not getting the resigning max but who really cares? What the Hornets were getting back were assesta that could be used either in a rebuilding plan on the court or for future moves. Overpaid guys in the NBA become very valuable in the final year of their deal. The become salary cap chips. That is what CJ is really missing. His concept that the team isnt going to be a real contender and needs to rebuild is sound however the business of the salary cap make what he wants them to do impossible.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The become salary cap chips. That is what CJ is really missing. His concept that the team isnt going to be a real contender and needs to rebuild is sound however the business of the salary cap make what he wants them to do impossible.

I don't really think that is reality any longer. We'll see, but I don't think the new deal is going to make these guys as valuable as "chips" as they were in the past.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

They can certainly do better than paying Martin and Scola, that is for sure. Guys like Martin and Scola aren't selling tickets, and they aren't winning games. What exactly is the upside? If you are going to lose, lose it paying the minimum with short term contracts. They can always just pay a tax if they don't reach the minimum, right?

Do you seriously think that an NBA controlled team is going to be allowed to be under the salary cap min after having a lockout? The players might strike lol

Scola and Martin arent superstars but arent nearly as bad as you are making them out to be. Miami would love to have either guy.

[cmorioles]

KBergCBS Ken Berger

In resumption of CP3-Lakers talks with Houston, Hornets under directive from NBA to get younger players, quality picks in deal, souces say.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't really think that is reality any longer. We'll see, but I don't think the new deal is going to make these guys as valuable as "chips" as they were in the past.

Why would you think that? The new deal isnt really much different than the old deal.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

They aren't as a whole, but the ones that are usually are younger guys under the rookie scale. Maybe it is just me, but give me young, unproven guys over proven guys that win nothing every single time.

As I said before, being mediocre in the NBA gets you nothing but more mediocrity. It has been going on for decades. Teams get good by spending on superstars (good ones) or getting lucky in the draft. You don't get lucking drafting 15th.

I just think if they are interested in actually marketing the team to a potential owner, you can do it easier with a guy like Odom in place. He's not a superstar, but certainly all star quality type guy who is capable of playing multiple positions. Yes, Scola and Martin aren't exactly exciting, but serviceable and better than what they have now minus Ariza. Plus, they were getting a first round pick in the process.

I can't see someone taking a plunge on this team based on hoping they get lucky in the draft which is what you are proposing. You can minimize your losses by making the trade and begin to look to the future now, instead of wasting a year with a team that will be gone in a year. At the very least Odom would give them a bargaining chip in the draft or in any trades they try and make.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

KBergCBS Ken Berger

Seriously? That is laughable. Are these guys serious? Again who outside of a team like LA or NY is going trade for a guy who may be a rental? Really NBA? High picks or younger players? Yeah maybe the Clippers will trade Griffin to NO. lol. It is like bizzaro world. Bill Simmons has enough ammo for 1000 columns now.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you seriously think that an NBA controlled team is going to be allowed to be under the salary cap min after having a lockout? The players might strike lol

Scola and Martin arent superstars but arent nearly as bad as you are making them out to be. Miami would love to have either guy.

Of course Miami would, as a 4th option, and at half the price. Even then, Martin wouldn't fit. I doubt you've seen him play near the number of times I have...he is a liability to any team he is on. That lineup you quote might make the playoffs in the East, but no way in hell in the West.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I just think if they are interested in actually marketing the team to a potential owner, you can do it easier with a guy like Odom in place. He's not a superstar, but certainly all star quality type guy who is capable of playing multiple positions. Yes, Scola and Martin aren't exactly exciting, but serviceable and better than what they have now minus Ariza. Plus, they were getting a first round pick in the process.

I can't see someone taking a plunge on this team based on hoping they get lucky in the draft which is what you are proposing. You can minimize your losses by making the trade and begin to look to the future now, instead of wasting a year with a team that will be gone in a year. At the very least Odom would give them a bargaining chip in the draft or in any trades they try and make.

Luis Scola and Kevin Martin are far better NBA players than Ariza ever thought about being.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I just think if they are interested in actually marketing the team to a potential owner, you can do it easier with a guy like Odom in place. He's not a superstar, but certainly all star quality type guy who is capable of playing multiple positions. Yes, Scola and Martin aren't exactly exciting, but serviceable and better than what they have now minus Ariza. Plus, they were getting a first round pick in the process.

I can't see someone taking a plunge on this team based on hoping they get lucky in the draft which is what you are proposing. You can minimize your losses by making the trade and begin to look to the future now, instead of wasting a year with a team that will be gone in a year. At the very least Odom would give them a bargaining chip in the draft or in any trades they try and make.

I don't really disagree, except that I know as an owner I'd rather buy a bad team than a mediocre one, blow it up and start over. It is tough to start over taking on guys like Martin and particularly Scola. Odom is a one year deal and Dragic doesn't make much, so those two are fine.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't really disagree, except that I know as an owner I'd rather buy a bad team than a mediocre one, blow it up and start over. It is tough to start over taking on guys like Martin and particularly Scola. Odom is a one year deal and Dragic doesn't make much, so those two are fine.

Just to be clear, I think the trade should have been allowed. I'm just trying to show there is another side of it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course Miami would, as a 4th option, and at half the price. Even then, Martin wouldn't fit. I doubt you've seen him play near the number of times I have...he is a liability to any team he is on. That lineup you quote might make the playoffs in the East, but no way in hell in the West.

Martin wouldnt fit in Miami? If Eddie House fits than I'm pretty sure Martin would fit like a glove. The guy is a scorer, excellent FT shooter, pretty good 3 point range. Anyone who can score 23 points a game in 32 minutes in the NBA has some appreciable skills. He is what he is.

The West isnt looking so hot. Denver is worse, Memphis lost Battier and gained Gay (net loss perhaps). What has Portland done? Phoenix? The Lakers arent better. NO made the playoffs last year with arguably a worse lineup.

[King Glorious]

New Orleans would have been better this year than last. Scola, Martin, and Odom are all solid NBA players. Maybe not all stars but guys that in any given night can give you an all-star performance. Guys that can give you 18-8 or 23 a night or be triple-double threats don't grow on trees.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Martin wouldnt fit in Miami? If Eddie House fits than I'm pretty sure Martin would fit like a glove. The guy is a scorer, excellent FT shooter, pretty good 3 point range. Anyone who can score 23 points a game in 32 minutes in the NBA has some appreciable skills. He is what he is.

The West isnt looking so hot. Denver is worse, Memphis lost Battier and gained Gay (net loss perhaps). What has Portland done? Phoenix? The Lakers arent better. NO made the playoffs last year with arguably a worse lineup.

Martin has to have the ball to score. How is he going to get the ball? He dominates the ball to score those points. It isn't happening on a team like Miami.

Now, to the West...

NO made the playoffs for one reason...Chris Paul.

How is Denver worse? They were much better after the Mello trade. They do, of course, need to get a few guys back from China. Losing JR Smith is a plus, not a minus.

Battier isn't the same caliber as Gay...no way in hell is that a net loss. Battier is a solid role player, nothing more. He was not much of a factor on their second half surge. He is a decent locker room guy, but on the court, not a big deal.

Portland lost Roy, but they played without him for long stretches. If Oden stays healthy, big if obviously, they'll be better. If not, they are still a playoff team. Aldridge is a stud that is getting better all the time.

Phoenix didn't make it last year, and they won't this year either. They should get rid of Nash and rebuild. He is good enough that he'll keep them stuck in 500 land until he leaves.

The Clippers are going to be much better. I think they are a lock for the playoffs. I've been wrong before, but I would bet they make it.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

New Orleans would have been better this year than last. Scola, Martin, and Odom are all solid NBA players. Maybe not all stars but guys that in any given night can give you an all-star performance. Guys that can give you 18-8 or 23 a night or be triple-double threats don't grow on trees.

No way in hell is this team better off on the court without Paul and getting those guys. Paul is that good.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Martin has to have the ball to score. How is he going to get the ball? He dominates the ball to score those points. It isn't happening on a team like Miami.

Now, to the West...

NO made the playoffs for one reason...Chris Paul.

How is Denver worse? They were much better after the Mello trade. They do, of course, need to get a few guys back from China. Losing JR Smith is a plus, not a minus.

Battier isn't the same caliber as Gay...no way in hell is that a net loss. Battier is a solid role player, nothing more. He was not much of a factor on their second half surge. He is a decent locker room guy, but on the court, not a big deal.

Portland lost Roy, but they played without him for long stretches. If Oden stays healthy, big if obviously, they'll be better. If not, they are still a playoff team. Aldridge is a stud that is getting better all the time.

Phoenix didn't make it last year, and they won't this year either. They should get rid of Nash and rebuild. He is good enough that he'll keep them stuck in 500 land until he leaves.

The Clippers are going to be much better. I think they are a lock for the playoffs. I've been wrong before, but I would bet they make it.

Martin can shoot. On Miami he wouldnt have to do anything else.

When Gay went down, Memphis went up.

Denver is losing Nene, Chandler (for 3 months at least), Martin (I know he was hurt) and Smith (who I dont like but guys who can score like him have valuable in the NBA with 48 minute games)

Portland has issues and depending on Oden is well...you know.

Yeah the Clippers are going to be better but SA is worse, Houston is in flux, Golden State has issues, Utah needs to develop, Sacramento is a strange team, Dallas is obviously worse, Minnesota will be better but has a long way to go