Another NY trainer caught....

[The Bid]

Nobody is speaking out about Sciacca training for Deetee, I doubt anyone cares except the people in DT. If they dont mind having a confirmed cheater as a trainer, then they are part of the problem. This issue needs to be addressed, no excuse is good enough. Owners need to make up their minds, you either want this game on the up and up, or you want to continue the bullshit that goes on at sales and on the backside.

Either horseracing gets honest, or it will continue to be a second rate sport, PERIOD

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

what would this have to do with the current discussion?

being able to name banned substances and who tests for what doesn't change the FACT that Gary was found guilty of milkshaking....whether he did it or not should not even be up for discussion.....if the trainer in question was Durtrow who here would defend him?

the naivitee that andy refers to implys that some posters here, including perhaps the host of the board are blindly assuming that because the guy says he didn't do it (since he is friend of the "team")then he didn't....obviously those investigating this issue felt otherwise...hence the guilty finding. I happen to like Gary personally...but I still think he did it.

Ya think Daaaaaaaaaah?

[trifecta124]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Nobody is speaking out about Sciacca training for Deetee, I doubt anyone cares except the people in DT. If they dont mind having a confirmed cheater as a trainer, then they are part of the problem. This issue needs to be addressed, no excuse is good enough. Owners need to make up their minds, you either want this game on the up and up, or you want to continue the bullshit that goes on at sales and on the backside.

Either horseracing gets honest, or it will continue to be a second rate sport, PERIOD

They can try and make it as honest as they want....It will continue to be a second rate sport. FWIW I guess baseball is a second rate sport as well due to all of the cheating that goes on.

[Riot]

Owners need to make up their minds, you either want this game on the up and up, or you want to continue the bullshit that goes on at sales and on the backside.

So who are your horses with?

[The Bid]

Baseball has lost countless fans due to the steroids

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by trifecta124

Obviously many here seem to have an agenda against Dee Tee Stable using Gary Sciacca as a trainer.

i don't think that's obvious.
what i do think is obvious is that many see everything in black and white, absolutely no shades of grey at all. i'm more inclined to give someone some leeway when faced with a seemingly unclear, four year old case--while not understanding the constant forgiveness for those who repeatedly break some pretty stringent doping rules.

thing is, until those who can make changes, who can install and enforce rules with real teeth, you'll have people constantly breaking the rules. there's no reason for them not to--there's no real punishment for offending trainers. yet jocks routinely get suspensions that can last YEARS. i know of two different jocks who got five year bans for carrying a buzzer. not using a buzzer. but they had it. hey, absolutely sit them down.
but trainers should have the same types of punishment. after all, a trainer who gets caught in testing didn't just have illegal substances, he actually administered it to the horse--why should that be a lesser crime than what those jocks did?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Nobody is speaking out about Sciacca training for Deetee, I doubt anyone cares except the people in DT. If they dont mind having a confirmed cheater as a trainer, then they are part of the problem. This issue needs to be addressed, no excuse is good enough. Owners need to make up their minds, you either want this game on the up and up, or you want to continue the bullshit that goes on at sales and on the backside.

Either horseracing gets honest, or it will continue to be a second rate sport, PERIOD

until racing gets serious with rule breakers, the sport will be seen as condoning cheating.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Danzig

until racing gets serious with rule breakers, the sport will be seen as condoning cheating.

It's only cheating if you get caught?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Baseball has lost countless fans due to the steroids

I am not so sure about that, they have broken attendence records again this year.

It is obviously completely different from baseball because one has gambling involved as its primary source of income.

Horse racing needs to find its niche, like minor league hockey. The Wolves here in Chicago(actually Rosemont) sell out constantly and are a good team, they are marketed perfectly. I think we just got a field hockey team also that is seeing some good attendence numbers.

[fpsoxfan]

As with any sport, there has been cheating, and let's face it there has been many different instances:

NASCAR: Cheating with equipment
Baseball: equipment and steroids
Basketball: Steroids and crooked refs
Cycling: Doping allegations and convictions
College Football: Doping, fixed games, boosters giving cash to players, etc.
College Basketball: same as college basketball
NFL: Steroids, any of the above and more

Let's face it, where money is involved there's going to be cheating. The good thing is, these people are being caught and punished. Does it give the sport a black eye? Sure it does. But, what I love is all of the people who can't wait to get on their "Holier than thou rants" about people who are caught. Suddenly we know all there is to know about these people based on one or two articles. Sure, there are some bad people doing bad things, but I bet there are many people in this game that we perceive as "the perfect trainers or owners" that are doing their share of dirty activities as well.
Do I want to see another trainer or owner get busted? No. I wish everyone was on the up and up. But the reality of the situation tells us otherwise.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Chuck Simon moved up that filly up 15-20 lengths in a few months. He's a good trainer. That's what is supposed to happen when a good trainer with a sharp eye takes a young horse from an average-to-poor trainer. They often move up.

I'm curious to know if Allday has done any work with Sumoneluveyou?

Thanks and No

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

What do you think the milkshake was for, the horse was thirsty. The milkshake masks other drugs in the system, either performance enhancing drugs or drugs to relieve pain...either way your logic is flawed.

This is not true

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Don't forget, when this incident took place very few people were being caught for milkshaking, as testing only began in the last two years.

Very few people have ever been caught in the act.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

BTW is right, the public should be outraged whenever any kind of drugging goes on. It should be a criminal offense. If these clowns faced punishment like people in the real world they wouldnt do it anymore.

Racing needs one governing body, and they need to take cheating serious. Snake Venom, Milk shaking, blocks/painkillers, all of that bullshit should land these guys in jail, off the grounds, and facing criminal charges.

If Chuck ran off to Cabo for a vacation do you think Cherie would be running around telling the vets to milkshake everything. It starts at the top, and it trickles down. The simple fact that Sciacca wasnt there just shows you how comfortable they were doing it.

The reason this game is stuck in the mud is because of its horrible reputation, something needs to be done

This is not one of your better efforts.
1. You will have a hard time criminalizing most medication positives without illegal drugs (non FDA approved) being used. The charges against these guys of sports tampering were dropped for a reason.
2. The one governing body theory can not happen so why keep bringing it up?
3. I would never go to Cabo on vacation.
4. The reputation of the game wont change no matter how good the tests are or how harsh the penalities are. Do you realize that watching a race where 5 guys are cheating and one where no guys are cheating will look the same? If you dont agree you prove my first sentence.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

What do you think the milkshake was for, the horse was thirsty. The milkshake masks other drugs in the system, either performance enhancing drugs or drugs to relieve pain...either way your logic is flawed.

You must have missed that day at vet school.

It is used to neutralize the effects of lactic acid, either in recovery from a race or workout, or to prevent the same prior to a race - it's measured in the level of CO2 in solution in the blood - obviously not to hard to catch

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

The really annoying thing about these guys cheating is they are screwing the gambler and the gambler is indirectly the guy who really pays their salary. It is almost like they have no respect for fairness to the guy gambling.

I don't have enough money to gamble a ton of money but I would not be happy if I lost a bunch of money when the horse I bet on ran 2nd to a cheater and then weeks later you find it out. The gambler still loses. It really hurts guys who spend thousand on pick 6's because they could lose out on a very big ticket due to one horse.

Actually the gambler is not being screwed nearly as much as the horsemen who compete against the cheater. I'm sure you have cashed many tickets on horses that may have been running with some sort of illegal substance in its system. I'm sure that I have not won any races with a horse with an illegal substance. (Actually once and it got me 15 days and I had to give back $4k)

Let me ask you this question. If 2 weeks later you found out you had cashed a ticket and made money on a cheater, would you give it back?

They may also benefit by hitting a big pick 6 by using a cheating horse. They still get to keep the money.

I am not condoning cheating but just pointing out the other side of the 'cheating the gamblers' argument.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Benevolus

Seems like just another thing to make the breed more fragile.

How would a joint lubricant help make the breed more fragile?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is not true

I have heard many opinions with facts as to why they do it, the who lactic acid reason just does not hold water to me based on the medical opinions I have heard....Some may use it for that reason but I believe masking drugs was the prevalent reason amongst bigger barns.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You must have missed that day at vet school.

It is used to neutralize the effects of lactic acid, either in recovery from a race or workout, or to prevent the same prior to a race - it's measured in the level of CO2 in solution in the blood - obviously not to hard to catch

dont buy it...though I suppose some used it for that....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, milkshakes were legal until the 1990's, and if you go back a few decades, heroin, amphetamines, caffeine, etc. was legal, too.

I dont believe Heroin or amphetimines were ever considered legal. Detection of them was spotty in years past. One of the reason that the sport never had to deal with this problem back in the golden age was that little could be detected. Many of the stars of the 70's raced on far more than hay, oats and water.