Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by CSC

One of Europe's all time greatest horses Nijinsky II was a Canadian bred also, Formal Gold? That one was new to me also.

Speaking of great Canadian breds and outstanding two surface horses ... the dam of Singspiel was Candian Bred and Eclipse champion Glorious Song.

Spectacular Bid was 24-for-24 between the distances of 7fs to 10fs.

One race after The Bid won the Washington Park Handicap by 10 lengths with a Ragozin figure that wouldn't be bettered until Congaree's first Cigar Mile win 20+ years later .. and one race before Spectacular Bid made his final career start in a walkover ... Glorious Song ran 2nd beaten 2 lengths to The Bid at Monmouth.

Glorious Song was also from the same dam as Devil's Bag and Saint Ballado. Besides Singspiel she was also the dam of Rahy. Great family of horses.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Speaking of great Canadian breds and outstanding two surface horses ... the dam of Singspiel was Candian Bred and Eclipse champion Glorious Song.

Spectacular Bid was 24-for-24 between the distances of 7fs to 10fs.

One race after The Bid won the Washington Park Handicap by 10 lengths with a Ragozin figure that wouldn't be bettered until Congaree's first Cigar Mile win 20+ years later .. and one race before Spectacular Bid made his final career start in a walkover ... Glorious Song ran 2nd beaten 2 lengths to The Bid at Monmouth.

Glorious Song was also from the same dam as Devil's Bag and Saint Ballado. Besides Singspiel she was also the dam of Rahy. Great family of horses.

Yes, I vaguely remember her but I do remember Stronach talking about her very fondly when he was reflecting on all the great horses he once owned.

[RolloTomasi]

Redattore, Twilight Agenda, Ibero.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Opening Verse wasn't much of a dirt horse from what little I remember.

Opening Verse won the Grade 1 Oaklawn as well as the prep (the Razorback, then a Grade 2). He was also 3rd in the great '90 Hollywood Gold Cup.

Jovial went terribly off-form for a couple of years prior to his brief rejuvenation. In the Cinema, he defeated Mehmetori who came back to defeat In Excess next out in the Oceanside. More importantly, in 3rd was Itsallgreektome, who went on a tear the last half of the season, finishing a close 2nd twice to future turf champion Tight Spot (was briefly put up on a reversed DQ in the DM Derby), just getting nipped late by Royal Academy in the BC Mile, before taking the Hollywood Derby and Hollywood Turf Cup late in the year to be named Eclipse champion turf horse.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Rock Hard Ten would have been butt-hurt by Saint Liam in the 2005 BC Classic. I only wish he had run so that the hysteria with him could stop. By far and away one of the most overrated horses in the last ten years.

NT

I would have given you more, but they limit images!

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I would have given you more, but they limit images!

Head to Head he beat him...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

One had a single giant race on dirt ... the other had four or five.

One had stretches where he wasn't a monster scattered in between sheer brilliance... the other never was beaten.

It's a tough question to answer because it really boils down to what you value in a horse.

Some people probably don't know that Formal Gold won his debut by 19 lengths with a record debut Beyer of 112.

Some people probably don't know that FG was only a pace factor in that Dubai World Cup race won by the globetrotting turf horse Singspeil off of a layoff.

There was a great FG and an ordinary FG.

Has anyone found this race online?

When is the last time you've seen a horse run a 126 and lose?! Apparently this was all before the bounce theory too..

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Head to Head he beat him...

Apparently, head to head means nothing. I guess next we are going to read again that Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence. Or maybe better than that, we can read how Summer Bird is better than Rachel Alexandra. Rock Hard Ten beat the hell out of St. Liam but St. Liam was so much better. Got it.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Apparently, head to head means nothing. I guess next we are going to read again that Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence. Or maybe better than that, we can read how Summer Bird is better than Rachel Alexandra. Rock Hard Ten beat the hell out of St. Liam but St. Liam was so much better. Got it.

Saint Liam was beaten by Rock Hard Ten in his backyard. Rock Hard Ten was completely useless outside of California and that is a huge mark against him with me. The SA Handicap was clearly the only real blemish on Saint Liam's record as his only other loss during the entire campaign was to Commentator in the race of that horse's life. He was there when it counted and he performed at a high level.

Rock Hard Ten was overrated from the time he broke his maiden. Everyone latched onto him on the Derby Trail and the DQ in the SA Derby added to his appeal because it led to his exclusion at CD. As a 4YO he was good, sure, but he also hardly ran. The SA Handicap was a solid race but His Goodwood was the ultimate unimpressive race to me as he and Roman Ruler had cupcake trips and he capitalized.

When Saint Liam ran in the SA Handicap he was coming off a very handy win in the Donn where he BURIED the Dubai World Cup winner.

So, yes, RHT might have won the only head to head matchup but I still think Saint Liam was better. RHT, like Candy Ride but to a greater extent, is held in high regard because of potential more so than substance IMO.

NT

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Saint Liam was beaten by Rock Hard Ten in his backyard. Rock Hard Ten was completely useless outside of California and that is a huge mark against him with me. The SA Handicap was clearly the only real blemish on Saint Liam's record as his only other loss during the entire campaign was to Commentator in the race of that horse's life. He was there when it counted and he performed at a high level.

Rock Hard Ten was overrated from the time he broke his maiden. Everyone latched onto him on the Derby Trail and the DQ in the SA Derby added to his appeal because it led to his exclusion at CD. As a 4YO he was good, sure, but he also hardly ran. The SA Handicap was a solid race but His Goodwood was the ultimate unimpressive race to me as he and Roman Ruler had cupcake trips and he capitalized.

When Saint Liam ran in the SA Handicap he was coming off a very handy win in the Donn where he BURIED the Dubai World Cup winner.

So, yes, RHT might have won the only head to head matchup but I still think Saint Liam was better. RHT, like Candy Ride but to a greater extent, is held in high regard because of potential more so than substance IMO.

NT

I get that and don't disagree with a lot of it. I actually wasn't all that taken with RHT myself. But I was even less taken with SL. I never thought either of them was that much of a horse. Everyone made a huge deal of St. Liam because of how well he ran against Ghostzapper in the Woodward. Nobody gives any credit to Peace Rules though and PR handled him twice earlier in the year. For me, it was a close decision on which one of them deserved to be the top older male and in a tight vote, I'd give the advantage to the one that beat the other. I've never understood the argument that a horse didn't run enough. Good is good, whether it's three races or 30. If a horse wins the Kentucky Derby, Woodward, and BC Classic in his only three races of the year, is he only held in high regard because of his potential? Hell no. That's a good horse.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I get that and don't disagree with a lot of it. I actually wasn't all that taken with RHT myself. But I was even less taken with SL. I never thought either of them was that much of a horse. Everyone made a huge deal of St. Liam because of how well he ran against Ghostzapper in the Woodward. Nobody gives any credit to Peace Rules though and PR handled him twice earlier in the year. For me, it was a close decision on which one of them deserved to be the top older male and in a tight vote, I'd give the advantage to the one that beat the other. I've never understood the argument that a horse didn't run enough. Good is good, whether it's three races or 30. If a horse wins the Kentucky Derby, Woodward, and BC Classic in his only three races of the year, is he only held in high regard because of his potential? Hell no. That's a good horse.

Peace Rules would be the greatest horse EVAH if he was running now!

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

When Saint Liam ran in the SA Handicap he was coming off a very handy win in the Donn where he BURIED the Dubai World Cup winner.

Similarly, Formal Gold was a ho-hum 5th in the Big Cap (to Siphon, Sandpit, and Gentlemen) after a big win in the Donn (over Skip Away) before going on to greater glory.

To be fair, RHT was unbeaten at 4 and never got an opportunity to ship. Can't remember why he had the spring/summer off.

I think he might have shipped to Belmont but came up with a "foot" issue or whatever. Considering the moderate Classic field that year (30-1 Flower Alley was 2nd), it might have been a decent matchup.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

INobody gives any credit to Peace Rules though and PR handled him twice earlier in the year. For me, it was a close decision on which one of them deserved to be the top older male and in a tight vote, I'd give the advantage to the one that beat the other. I've never understood the argument that a horse didn't run enough.

Did Rick Dutrow train Saint Liam when he was running against Peace Rules?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I get that and don't disagree with a lot of it. I actually wasn't all that taken with RHT myself. But I was even less taken with SL. I never thought either of them was that much of a horse. Everyone made a huge deal of St. Liam because of how well he ran against Ghostzapper in the Woodward. Nobody gives any credit to Peace Rules though and PR handled him twice earlier in the year. For me, it was a close decision on which one of them deserved to be the top older male and in a tight vote, I'd give the advantage to the one that beat the other. I've never understood the argument that a horse didn't run enough. Good is good, whether it's three races or 30. If a horse wins the Kentucky Derby, Woodward, and BC Classic in his only three races of the year, is he only held in high regard because of his potential? Hell no. That's a good horse.

I suppose my point was more of an anti-RHT and the horse who was being compared to him was Saint Liam. I think in the grand scheme of things they were both average handicap horses historically but had the benefit of coming along at the right time.

Peace Rules also beat Saint Liam twice in 2004 which was really before SL got good. He was a better horse in 2005 but was certainly not great horse by historical standards.

Rock Hard Ten to me was just Lava Man light. At least he wasn't quite as craptacular when he left California.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

On March 27th 1996 he won the Dubai Duty Free in a 14 horse field by a mere 20 lengths. His final time of 2:03 3/5ths was a tick faster than Cigar's 2:03 4/5ths on the same day at the same distance ... meaning he would have got a higher Beyer than Cigar got that day. Those pesky detention barns at Pimlico probably cost him the Pimlico Special.

Here's Cigar's PP's again if you want to see the final time comparison for that day ...

There is some validity in comparing times for certain races on the same day and they are interesting for comparative's sake, but in my opinion they are never conclusive when it comes to the actual racing part of the equation. Saying that admittidley The Dubai race probably wasn't Cigar's best(numbers wise), I think everyone knew at the time he had a stone bruise and missed some training leading up to that race, most owner's would have probably scratched a horse of this caliber at the slightest mishap, but not Allen Paulson. He made promises and he was a man to his word. Still I compare that race much to the Holy Bull Travers, or Seattle Slew losing to Exceller race as one that Cigar should have lost, 9/10 a big move like the one Soul of The Matter made in that race would have netted a win, but to me this just illustrated Cigar's determination to win with adversity, to me this race and his Hollywood Gold Cup were his 2 finest moments as a racehorse.

Edit: His last race was pretty good also, on a golden rail track he never saw the rail to only miss by a head. I know some will probably say Alphabet Soup was just 1 lane inside of him, but to truly appreciate how Cigar raced that day watch his entire trip and all of the dirt races that day and he really ran a hell of a race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxpcfqakobY&feature=fvsr

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Rock Hard Ten was completely useless outside of California and that is a huge mark against him with me.

He was also trained by the immortal Jason Orman as a 3yo.

He is to top class training what Sumitas is to top class message boarding.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Did Rick Dutrow train Saint Liam when he was running against Peace Rules?

Yes.

Saint Liam stunk pre-Dutrow.