Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Is it that black-and-white with even minor injuries where the use of medication totally replaces any form of rest? Shouldn't the two be used in conjunction?

Of course they are used in conjunction depending on the injury and severity of it. There are also alternate therapies that are used like ultrasound, ice, hosing, etc.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Of course they are used in conjunction depending on the injury and severity of it. There are also alternate therapies that are used like ultrasound, ice, hosing, etc.

And chiropractice, and sports-specific muscle therapy

Racing's got 99 problems, but lasix ain't one.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Anyways, the type of "rest" I was talking about was an "off season" of sorts. While horse racing can certainly be successful as a year-round venture, can it do so using the same group of horses the entire time? Can any individual racehorse stay in full race training and competition continuously? Is it feasible to stratify the horse population so that one group of horses (eg low-level claimers, stakes horses) get "down time" while another is actively running?

While a break can be helpful some horses do terrible when turned out. Is it better to give a horse a break from training occasionally? Sure. But not all horses that are at the track are in fulltime training.

I dont think it is possible to have 2 sets of horses alternate down time because it is hard to determine the timing of when a horse is going to improve or go off form. While some stakes horses might get mandatory rest because of the design of their future schedule I dont know anyone who would take a regular horse out of training that was thriving and doing well.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Lasix enables a horse to run to their peak, by helping prevent the development of a medical condition that will inhibit running ability by suffocating the horse in it's own blood to a lesser or greater degree.

But doesn't lasix have other systemic effects besides reducing the severity of bleeding that may improve performance? At the same time, does lung bleeding necessarily preclude a horse from performing competitively?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But doesn't lasix have other systemic effects besides reducing the severity of bleeding that may improve performance?

It can cause a small weight loss via diuresis (causing peeing), but research doesn't seem to support that the weight loss is contributory to any improved performance (there was a study that repeated everything with and without lasix with also replacing the weight lost by the horse due to lasix).

Lasix is the same "water pill" people take who have cardiac problems. Used in a one-time prerace injection, it won't cause a massive weight loss, it doesn't cause massive dehydration, it doesn't cause massive electrolyte problems (unless a trainer is really screwing with stuff by also spiking electrolytes in an excessive manner, or withholding water from the horse for 24 hours, etc)

Its funny - watching Australian racing, the temps there have been hot lately, and horses are literally wringing water off their bodies by the time they get to the post. We don't see that on horses using lasix to that extent (sweating is cooling) - but I'll bet those horses lose 20-30 pounds in water weight, too, before a race.

At the same time, does lung bleeding necessarily preclude a horse from performing competitively?

If your lungs are filled with mucus from a cold, can you breath? Can you do your 2-3 miles of daily roadwork? Can you inhale deeply and oxygenate yourself successfully under maximal physical effort?

Depends upon the amount of stuff down in your smallest airways and alveolar sacs, right?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Why do racehorses get hurt alot? A huge factor is the number of miles they accumulate in a finite period of time.

Horses get hurt because they are big, strong animals who are fed high test diets and honed to stay on edge. They have skinny legs and big bodies and most of the time those legs arent exactly perfectly conformed. They may have club or flat feet, be back or over at the knee, may be cow or sickle hocked. When thier foot strikes the ground the concussion isnt sent exactly up the leg through the foot in a straight line but correspondnt to the physical makeup of the feet and legs. This leads to certain area's getting more stress. A horse who is back at the knee is much more likely to sustain a knee chip than one who isnt. A horse who has flat feet is much more likely to get sore feet than one who doesn't. Horses with long pasterns are much more likely to run down/have suspensory issues than one who isn't. The surfaces that we train on in the best of times are hardly uniform from day to day, and from hour to hour, depending on the weather or even the amount of traffic on the track.

That doesnt even take into consideration internal issues like stomach issues, colic, tying up, etc.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

On the other hand, how many "therapeutic" positives are the result of indiscriminate "pre-racing"? Take the Tom Amoss case from this year. Five positives for the same medication in the span of a few weeks. Or Kiarin McLaughlin at a fall Keeneland meet a couple of years ago with multiple positives for an inhalant. Superficially, does this look like bad luck or mismanagement? Should the public reasonably be expected to accept that a significant number of horses in the same barn need to be on the same medication (never mind still be entered to race)?

I cant speak for these 2 incidences specifically but as I said before often you believe that you are playing within the rules and dont find out that they changed the speed limit on you till you get the notice that you aren't.

What the public doesnt understand is that most horses have similar issues that are treated close to the same way. Sure a valuable horse may get to have expensive therapies in conjunction with a medicine regimine that a cheaper, less valauble horse doesnt get but it isnt that different than people who have bad backs. The treatments are pretty similar.

[Cannon Shell]

I think the stomach issue is something that can be easily explained as people can relate.

It wasnt that long ago that we didnt have any idea to what extent ulcers played in the health of horses. It seems amazing now but 20 years ago very few people made much of it. When a stomach scope was developed we found that a huge majority of horses had stomach ulcers, even seemingly healthy, in-form ones might have some degree of ulcers.

Before we recognized ulcers was a problem that was causing horses to be less healthy, their coats would go bad, they would act colicky, they would get sour, form would go off. Trainers would turn those horses out (good ones at least) and let the issue sort itself out (even if they didnt know the root cause). Being turned out on a grass paddock can reduce stomach ulcers either completely or to a managable level so after a few months the horse could return to training.

Now that we understand the role ulcers play we not only can manage them with medicine (expensive medicine I might add) but take other steps to try to reduce the development of them. Instead of having to give horse 3 months off and spend 3 months bringing them back we can treat them and keep them healthier. While i'm sure that some will believe that the rest isnt so bad try owning a horse that cant race for 1/2 the year. The other issue is that just because you healed the ulcers in this instance the factors that caused them in the first place are still there. So eventually the same cycle will play over again.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

If your lungs are filled with mucus from a cold, can you breath? Can you do your 2-3 miles of daily roadwork? Can you inhale deeply and oxygenate yourself successfully under maximal physical effort?

Depends upon the amount of stuff down in your smallest airways and alveolar sacs, right?

It's hard to believe that a horse suffering a bleeding episode during a race will run to its maximum effort, but that doesn't mean that it can't race competitively all the same, does it? Certainly there have been winners of races found to have bled post-race.

Horses are still bleeding despite the use of lasix, so it's not necessarily a forgone conclusion that lasix is the definitive treatment for bleeding. In fact, in the AVMA link you provided, the organization supported the use of lasix only in the "absence of a more effective treatment...". Hardly a ringing endorsment.

Don't many believe that horses are able to continue to perform even with minor injuries of all types? In fact, what percentage of racehorses, or any type of athlete, are considered to be completely "sound"?

As to the protection of the betting public, does lasix administration guarantee that a horse is being given ample opportunity to run to its best? Don't most jurisdictions allow for a variable dose lasix to be administered on raceday. Who's to stop the connections of a known bleeder (but probably unknown to the public), controlled normally with the maximum allowable amount of lasix, to suddenly drop the dose to the minimum? Would it be simpler and beneficial for the betting public's interest (and not necessarily the horse's health) to prevent this from the outset, by not allowing a licensed veterinarian in the stall on raceday with a needle and syringe and perhaps by banning horses from racing that bleed visibily from the nose?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It's hard to believe that a horse suffering a bleeding episode during a race will run to its maximum effort, but that doesn't mean that it can't race competitively all the same, does it? Certainly there have been winners of races found to have bled post-race.

Absolutely. We've raced horses since the dawn of time and we see the 1 in 20 that bleed out through their nose, but not the rest.

But now we have more advanced medicine, and we know what bleeding out the nose can mean, and we have a drug that helps the majority of horses not do that and thus not scar their lungs, get infections, suffocate.

Horses are still bleeding despite the use of lasix, so it's not necessarily a forgone conclusion that lasix is the definitive treatment for bleeding. In fact, in the AVMA link you provided, the organization supported the use of lasix only in the "absence of a more effective treatment...". Hardly a ringing endorsment.

You've certainly misread that

As I've pointed out here, the causes of EIPH are thought to be multifactorial, and we know that lasix doesn't work on some horses. That, and FLAIR strips, are the best, and have shown to be most efficacious. Nobody, especially the veterinary world, has declared lasix a "definitive treatment" in the least. Yes, we are always looking to improve upon that. There are multiple other drugs attempted to help EIPH. They don't work. Yes, the AVMA and AAEP is indeed a "ringing endorsement", calling specifically for the use of this one drug on race day against all others, against the current racing establishment. Why? Because it's use protects horse lungs. It protects horses lives, use, and ability to be a racehorse. In spite of every other jurisdiction in the world, including American non-racing equine sports, forbidding lasix use, the AVMA and AAEP are fighting and recommending that lasix only continue to be an allowed race day medication.

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/an...racehorses.asp

And it's not "to make vets money". That's absurd beyond belief. It's because it works and helps horses.

BTW: where is the betting public's outrage against the use of FLAIR nasal strips, which have the same efficacy in decreasing bleeding as lasix?

Don't many believe that horses are able to continue to perform even with minor injuries of all types? In fact, what percentage of racehorses, or any type of athlete, are considered to be completely "sound"?

Why shouldn't we help horses if they are hurting? Why should we not help keep horses from bleeding into their lungs? Getting harmed? That's inhumane.

We domesticated them, we breed them for a single purpose, and we use them for our pleasure, entertainment and income.

The least we can do, if we want horses to be elite athletes, is treat them with the respect and humane care they deserve, and give them the best veterinary care possible.

As to the protection of the betting public, does lasix administration guarantee that a horse is being given ample opportunity to run to its best? Don't most jurisdictions allow for a variable dose lasix to be administered on raceday. Who's to stop the connections of a known bleeder (but probably unknown to the public), controlled normally with the maximum allowable amount of lasix, to suddenly drop the dose to the minimum?

The stewards via current racing rules.

Do you know the influence of giving 6cc versus 10cc of lasix to a 1200-lb racehorse?

What are you afraid lasix will do to a horse that's unfair to the betting public or horse?

Would it be simpler and beneficial for the betting public's interest (and not necessarily the horse's health) to prevent this from the outset, by not allowing a licensed veterinarian in the stall on raceday with a needle and syringe and perhaps by banning horses from racing that bleed visibily from the nose?

Humm ... horse health versus betting public. I'll take horses health, the well-being of these beautiful athletes, every. single. time.

Without the horse, the betting public has nothing. And if the betting public (or an owner or trainer) puts their money against the welfare of the horse, they deserve to get absolutely nothing.

The "vet in the stall with a needle" has been easily remedied by state vets only giving lasix shots pre-race.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It's hard to believe that a horse suffering a bleeding episode during a race will run to its maximum effort, but that doesn't mean that it can't race competitively all the same, does it? Certainly there have been winners of races found to have bled post-race.

Horses are still bleeding despite the use of lasix, so it's not necessarily a forgone conclusion that lasix is the definitive treatment for bleeding. In fact, in the AVMA link you provided, the organization supported the use of lasix only in the "absence of a more effective treatment...". Hardly a ringing endorsment.

Don't many believe that horses are able to continue to perform even with minor injuries of all types? In fact, what percentage of racehorses, or any type of athlete, are considered to be completely "sound"?

As to the protection of the betting public, does lasix administration guarantee that a horse is being given ample opportunity to run to its best? Don't most jurisdictions allow for a variable dose lasix to be administered on raceday. Who's to stop the connections of a known bleeder (but probably unknown to the public), controlled normally with the maximum allowable amount of lasix, to suddenly drop the dose to the minimum? Would it be simpler and beneficial for the betting public's interest (and not necessarily the horse's health) to prevent this from the outset, by not allowing a licensed veterinarian in the stall on raceday with a needle and syringe and perhaps by banning horses from racing that bleed visibily from the nose?

After a race, trainers will often times have their vet scope the horse to see if the horse bled. If the horse did bleed, the vet will usually rate the severity of the bleeding on a scale of 1-5. If they tell you that the horse bled and the severity was a "3", you can assume that the bleeding probably affected the horse's performance negatively. But if the vet tells you that the horse barely bled (just a drop) and the severity wasn't even a "1", the vet will usually tell you that the bleeding had no effect on the horse's performance.

As Riot said, it is normal for racehorses to bleed. I think she said that 93% of horses will show trace amounts of blood if you scope them. A trace amount of blood is not going to affect their performance. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take it seriously or that you shouldn't stay on top of it. If it starts to get worse, it could become a problem.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Has anyone addressed this question other than with an "I don't care about the rest of the world" response? Someone said horses only average 3 or 4 starts a year in Ireland and France. What about Australia and Hong Kong? Are horses in those areas making fewer starts per year than here?

To read this thread, one would think we are currently in a Golden Age of horseracing, and that to go back to the pre-1995 situation in New York is absolutely unthinkable. Were New York horses making fewer starts per year before 1995 than now?

Rupert's point, I think, is that "the sky is falling, the end is near" may be an over-reaction in the face of the experience of the rest of the world. That seems like a reasonable point to me, especially considering our own long experience pre-Lasix.

--Dunbar

I don't know if that's true about horses starting only 3 or 4 times a year in Ireland and France. That sounds a little low to me. I'd like to see the source on that.

As you have pointed out, horses used to be much sturdier and used to race much more often before we started using lasix and all these other drugs. I'm not claiming that that proves that lasix and all these drugs are the reason why horses are so much more fragile now, but I certainly think that it is a possibility. I think it is a reasonable hypothesis. There are some smart people in this industry that believe it. I don't know if it is true or not but I don't know how anyone could say with certainty that it's not true.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Horses get hurt because they are big, strong animals who are fed high test diets and honed to stay on edge. They have skinny legs and big bodies and most of the time those legs arent exactly perfectly conformed. They may have club or flat feet, be back or over at the knee, may be cow or sickle hocked. When thier foot strikes the ground the concussion isnt sent exactly up the leg through the foot in a straight line but correspondnt to the physical makeup of the feet and legs. This leads to certain area's getting more stress. A horse who is back at the knee is much more likely to sustain a knee chip than one who isnt. A horse who has flat feet is much more likely to get sore feet than one who doesn't. Horses with long pasterns are much more likely to run down/have suspensory issues than one who isn't. The surfaces that we train on in the best of times are hardly uniform from day to day, and from hour to hour, depending on the weather or even the amount of traffic on the track.

That doesnt even take into consideration internal issues like stomach issues, colic, tying up, etc.

No doubt that conformation is an important component of racehorse injury. But isn't even the most ideally conformed racehorse susceptible to injury if overworked/overraced?

Does treating minor issues with legal therapeutics, specifically for racing purposes(versus for training or recovery), enable potential overload, and potentially cause some minor injuries to become "major" ones? If that scenario is commonplace, would a ban of therapeutics (to threshold levels) from, say, 7-days out (after most horses have had their final breeze for an upcoming start) be a logical approach to controlling medication use?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

As Riot said, it is normal for racehorses to bleed. I think she said that 93% of horses will show trace amounts of blood if you scope them.

Little correction just so we stay accurate Scopes only show bleeding roughly 60-70% of the time (the vet sees gross evidence of blood in the trachea)

Transtracheal washes and bronchoalveolar lavage will find more horses that have bled: 93% with evidence of bleeding upon microscopic examination of what's down there.

Horses that grossly bleed out the nostrils: about 5%

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What the public doesnt understand is that most horses have similar issues that are treated close to the same way. Sure a valuable horse may get to have expensive therapies in conjunction with a medicine regimine that a cheaper, less valauble horse doesnt get but it isnt that different than people who have bad backs. The treatments are pretty similar.

From news reports, the regulators seem to claim that they make an effort to notify horsemen of changes in testing standards. I don't know how strong an effort is made or whether or not a horseman can reasonably be expected to juggle all the rules, changes, withdrawals, etc., especially if he's operating in more than one jurisdiction.

However, back to the pre-race regimens, how likely is it that these are typically "cookbooked", in the sense that every horse from the same barn gets the same treatment? Does this seem apporpriate form a "horsemanship" standpoint? Furthermore, what is the dominant thought process behind the administration of pre-race treamtents? What the horse actually needs? What the horse received when he (or a stablemate) was last successful? What the rules/withdrawal times allow? What "levels the playing field"?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

The majority have their previously documented level of bleeding markedly decreased or gone, as evidenced by bronchoscopy clinically and BAL/TTW in research. Lasix does not work in all horses, some are unaffected.

The origins and causes of EIPH are thought to be multifactorial. In the 1990's I worked on the research that first measured actual cardiopulmonary intravascular pressures in horses while galloping at racing speed both on and off lasix. Lasix decreases the exercise-induced increase in cardiac and pulmonary pressures. High blood pressure rupturing fragile capillaries in the lung has always been one suspected cause of EIPH.

Chronic airway inflammation predisposing to capillary failure is another. I'd love to study the lungs of horses that live year-round at Churchill Downs, bordered by highways and under airport plane exhaust.

Another is the physical pounding, and physics: the sheer forces created within the lung tissue as a horse gallops a long time over firm ground carrying weight.

Another is the huge variance in intrapulmonary airway pressures, upper vs lower, during massive air intake of exercise - why the Flair nasal strips which hold the upper airway open decrease EIPH as much as lasix in some horses.

Speaking of pollution that the horses are breathing, I know that it would be expensive but wouldn't it be much better for the horses' lungs if the barn areas were re-done at all the tracks. At most tracks, the whole barn area is dirt. Why not put grass down everywhere and then pave the paths with that rubber brick stuff. Inside the barns, they could put down that rubber brick surface too.

I would have to think the horses would be less likely to bleed if their lungs weren't filled with all the dust that they breathe in all day in the barn area.

At Oaklawn Park they have a lot of grass in the barn areas. I would have to think that is much better than all that dirt and dust.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't know if that's true about horses starting only 3 or 4 times a year in Ireland and France. That sounds a little low to me. I'd like to see the source on that.

As you have pointed out, horses used to be much sturdier and used to race much more often before we started using lasix and all these other drugs. I'm not claiming that that proves that lasix and all these drugs are the reason why horses are so much more fragile now, but I certainly think that it is a possibility. I think it is a reasonable hypothesis. There are some smart people in this industry that believe it. I don't know if it is true or not but I don't know how anyone could say with certainty that it's not true.

Any lack of durability can be traced directly to the late 70's/early 80's when the number of horses in the US exploded. Horses who werent considered worthy of being breeding stock in prior years were suddenly being bred each and every year. The stallion ranks grew and likewise many of those who would have been considered inferior just a few years before were suddenly breeding full books of mares. When the foal crop goes from 25000 (1970) to 50000 (1985) it is logical that there will be a dilution of quality right? The shrinking of foal crops will make it tough on the racing side but should take some of the lesser breeding stock out of comission though the exodus to statebred programs may temper this. Of course there is no real way to measure this as it is a nebulous topic. If you believe the sheets horses have never been faster and yet beyer figures are lacking in comparison to 20 years ago in general. I still dont understand why medication gets so much blame from people who are perfectly willing to breed unraced mares to lightly raced stallions...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Any lack of durability can be traced directly to the late 70's/early 80's when the number of horses in the US exploded. Horses who werent considered worthy of being breeding stock in prior years were suddenly being bred each and every year. The stallion ranks grew and likewise many of those who would have been considered inferior just a few years before were suddenly breeding full books of mares. When the foal crop goes from 25000 (1970) to 50000 (1985) it is logical that there will be a dilution of quality right? The shrinking of foal crops will make it tough on the racing side but should take some of the lesser breeding stock out of comission though the exodus to statebred programs may temper this. Of course there is no real way to measure this as it is a nebulous topic. If you believe the sheets horses have never been faster and yet beyer figures are lacking in comparison to 20 years ago in general. I still dont understand why medication gets so much blame from people who are perfectly willing to breed unraced mares to lightly raced stallions...

You know that answer -- it's easy to blame something else when you're making money on the questionable. Tesio be damned.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Speaking of pollution that the horses are breathing, I know that it would be expensive but wouldn't it be much better for the horses' lungs if the barn areas were re-done at all the tracks. At most tracks, the whole barn area is dirt. Why not put grass down everywhere and then pave the paths with that rubber brick stuff. Inside the barns, they could put down that rubber brick surface too.

I would have to think the horses would be less likely to bleed if their lungs weren't filled with all the dust that they breathe in all day in the barn area.

At Oaklawn Park they have a lot of grass in the barn areas. I would have to think that is much better than all that dirt and dust.

Horse airways are designed to work with the horse's head down in the clean, green grass, grazing.

Most non-racing barns feed hay on the ground for that reason. Tracks determine if a trainer can use straw (can have alot of molds) or shavings to bed. Off track some people use newspaper or simply rubber mats for bedding allergic horses.

Yeah, horses inhaling all that dust from gravel drives and dirt on the track isn't as good as not doing it.

Those pavers are high dollar items.

Hey - for a mere less than 2 million, you can purchase this place next to the TB Training Center in Lexington, and have all your horses out getting grass time daily!

http://www.biedermanbrokerage.com/ (third property down on Paris Pike)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No doubt that conformation is an important component of racehorse injury. But isn't even the most ideally conformed racehorse susceptible to injury if overworked/overraced?

Does treating minor issues with legal therapeutics, specifically for racing purposes(versus for training or recovery), enable potential overload, and potentially cause some minor injuries to become "major" ones? If that scenario is commonplace, would a ban of therapeutics (to threshold levels) from, say, 7-days out (after most horses have had their final breeze for an upcoming start) be a logical approach to controlling medication use?

Of course any horse is more likely to be injured if overworked/overraced. But that is a trainer issue not a medication issue. While I hate to break off into another tangent IMO the standards for getting a trainers license is far too low.

It isnt an exact science and never will be. Are trainers/vets using meds to keep their horses running? Yes but in many cases they arent causing the horse any real harm though like most things in this debate it is hard to quantify. Abuse and abusive practices have no place in the business but there is very little research/investigation/surveillence done to counter this. IMO it would be far more practical and productive to focus our energy towards eliminating the bad apples and people who push the envelope rather than debate something stupid like lasix.

As for the 7 day withdrawl I support it to a degree. Joint injections should not be allowed inside of 7 days in my view. That is the rule in PA and it is something that they get right. But there are many other meds that shouldnt be cut off that early plus I believe that it can be hard to set testing levels for some meds that far out accurately. Something like adequan which is given IM is best used at 48 hours prior to race to be effective. It isnt much more than a joint supplement (of sorts-laymans terms) and isnt a performance enhancer but does help keep joints healthy. Same with ulcer meds and some other things.

There is a misconception that bute or banamine is masking pain and allowing injured horses to race and breakdown. That isnt true in virtually every case especially so with banamine which used to be allowed at 4 hours out in KY. These meds have been around for a long time and they just didnt recently start causing issues. In fact the best way to get a sore horse sound enough to pass the vet is to simply not train them at all, just walk them while maintaining the same feed schedule. They will start to feel better without the work and the energy that they arent burning off will make them look like they are aggressive and feeling good like a healthy horse. Of course once they break from the gate and start pounding on those injured legs the problems begin.