House Subcommittee Hearings - Page 8

Cannon Shell · #**141** 06-19-2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

So if I'm following you right, aside from PR, everything in horse racing is peachy keen?

No I never said anything like that. I blast the industry as much as anyone. I also have the perspective that few have. I train on many different curcuits, I own a lot of horses, I breed mares, I buy and sell at the sales, I have worked in racetrack management, and I am not rich enough to do any of these things strictly for the fun of it. I have been involved in the business for a long time in many different areas. I am not one of these out of touch committee members. But i also can see what is happening here. I will take a flawed, as is industry over something that may become a federal minefield. If they put an across the board 3% takeout raise on all simulcast bets what do you think will happen? What do you think handle will do then? What will happen to purses when handle plunges especially if the tracks get their way with the AWD money. I will be out of a job. Sounds like doom and gloom? It can happen.

Cannon Shell · #**142** 06-19-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I don't disagree. The take-out issues etc. all have repercussions, absolutely. But you have to take care of the core business model, because without it, everything else fails. Brushing these issues under the rug because of costs or other hoops, without fully investigating options, is nearsighted, which is all I'm saying.

If there were some segment of the market that was awaiting greater regulation to start betting on a regular basis I may agree. But you seem to forget the customer placing the bet is the core business, not the race being run. The race is a by product of the bet. You cant tell if the race is being run by horses who are on steroids or not on them. Cost is what drives everything, Travis. That was the purpose of the analogy. if you price your self out of the market it doesnt matter what the product on the track looks like. And let me tell you the drug problem in this game has very little to do with the drugs being discussed.

parsixfarms · #**143** 06-19-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I get guys calling me all the time to "invest" with them. Or invest in oil wells. Or other things. Who polices them? I never said that the sales were perfect and there are people with whom i wont do business with. But there have been reforms made so to say that there havent is wrong. How do you propose that the sales are cleaned up. I'm serious, i would like to hear your views.

If you read my responses, I never said that changes haven't been made. Part of the problem is that you've been in the business for years, and you know who not to deal with. I've been involved far less (5+ years now), and I have some ideas about certain consignors with whom I won't do business. But what about the new guy who doesn't have such insight? How many of them have been ripped off and are now out of the business?

As for problem items: The drugs are one item, unregulated as they are at the 2YO sales, but we don't need to belabor that point.

My concerns go more to the shenanigans that often go on at the sales. Some examples are phony sales/numbers to drive up stallion averages (which presents a whole different set of problems for breeders); undisclosed ownership of horses in the sales; phantom bidding when there's really no "live" money in the ring; and dual agency (or racing's euphemism for conflict of interest).

I'll give you an example of a situation that drove me nuts last year at Saratoga. We were looking at a horse in the NY-bred Preferred Sale and had him vetted out. Before doing so, the consignor told us that the reserve on the horse was going to be about $45,000. In the interest of shortening the story, we got off the horse (interested in others) and never bid on the horse in question. The horse RNA'd for $60,000, with who knows how much live money on him. The next morning, the consignor shows up at my trainer's barn and tells me: "You almost got him" and then intimated that he wanted to see if a private sale was possible. I told him that we never bid on the horse (you should have seen the look on his face when I told him that) and that we weren't interested. Had we been interested, who knows how much money his phony bidding would have fleeced us for?

Travis Stone · #**144** 06-19-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I will take a flawed, as is industry over something that may become a federal minefield. If they put an across the board 3% takeout raise on all simulcast bets what do you think will happen? What do you think handle will do then? What will happen to purses when handle plunges especially if the tracks get their way with the AWD money. I will be out of a job. Sounds like doom and gloom? It can happen.

I don't disagree. I would hope that by the end of the mess, racing will be in control of itself. A government minefield would very likely be disastrous.

Travis Stone · #**145** 06-19-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But you seem to forget the customer placing the bet is the core business, not the race being run. The race is a by product of the bet.

I definitely did not forget. I work for a customer-driven company, I'm deeply involved with our handle and decision making at LAD. It's a great experience, I've learned a remarkable amount. I'm awfully lucky in that regard. At the same time, I've also had opportunities to meet with folks who question racing's integrity, whether or not they're betting on legitimate horses. It's a scary trend. And today's hearings certainly do not help the general populations perception. Neither did Barbaro, nor Eight Belles. So right now, given this proverbial status-quo, we are walking on some thin ice with the general wagering public, which as we both know, are our customers.

Cannon Shell · #**146** 06-19-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

If you read my responses, I never said that changes haven't been made. Part of the problem is that you've been in the business for years, and you know who not to deal with. I've been involved far less (5+ years now), and I have some ideas about certain consignors with whom I won't do business. But what about the new guy who doesn't have such insight? How many of them have been ripped off and are now out of the business?

As for problem items: The drugs are one item, unregulated as they are at the 2YO sales, but we don't need to belabor that point.

My concerns go more to the shenanigans that often go on at the sales. Some examples are phony sales/numbers to drive up stallion averages (which presents a whole different set of problems for breeders); undisclosed ownership of horses in the sales; phantom bidding when there's really no "live" money in the ring; and dual agency (or racing's euphemism for conflict of interest).

I'll give you an example of a situation that drove me nuts last year at Saratoga. We were looking at a horse in the NY-bred Preferred Sale and had him vetted out. Before doing so, the consignor told us that the reserve on the horse was going to be about $45,000. In the interest of shortening the story, we got off the horse (interested in others) and never bid on the horse in question. The horse RNA'd for $60,000, with who knows how much live money on him. The next morning, the consignor shows up at my trainer's barn and tells me: "You almost got him" and then intimated that he wanted to see if a private sale was possible. I told him that we never bid on the horse (you should have seen the look on his face when I told him that) and that we weren't interested. Had we been interested, who knows how much money his phony bidding would have fleeced us for?

You learn in this business like any others, from experience and surrounding yourself with good people who will teach you. I have an issue with some of the things you mentioned but have learned how to deal with them enough to still be effective. Consignors have learned to be straight with me simply because I have learned to not get caught up in the bs. They know I dont deal and that I put a value on a horse and will be firm about it. What i do try to do is get an idea from the consignor if I am in the right ballpark so that I dont waste money vetting horses that I dont have a chance of buying. You have to trust the guy doing business for you but as for the guys selling the horse, they are like used car salesman. The phony sales are hard to stop because if the horse owner is willing to pay the commissions than so be it. I still dont understand why there isnt owner disclosure at the sales though they would just create shell companies anyway to avoid any rules. Phantom bidding only effects you if you spend more than you want to. I mean if you value a horse at $50000 and the bidding goes to $60000 and the horse is an RNA you are still able to offer the 50k after the fact. My advice is to simply remain firm on what you value the horse at. If you dont have a real good idea of what you are willing to pay going in then you can get caught up in some crap. And if a consignor lies to you remember him and dont do business with him. Simple.

parsixfarms · #**147** 06-19-2008, 05:26 PM

On this score, I think we are talking the same language (and I do much of which you suggest above when at the sales. As for how successful we've been, we'll see when the babies hit the track). My point is that, as with other issues, it surprises me the bs practices that people in the racing industry tolerate as "being part of the game." If it's wrong, it's wrong, and it should be stopped.

Cannon Shell · #**148** 06-19-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

I definitely did not forget. I work for a customer-driven company, I'm deeply involved with our handle and decision making at LAD. It's a great experience, I've learned a remarkable amount. I'm awfully lucky in that regard. At the same time, I've also had opportunities to meet with folks who question racing's integrity, whether or not they're betting on legitimate horses. It's a scary trend. And today's hearings certainly do not help the general populations perception. Neither did Barbaro, nor Eight Belles. So right now, given this proverbial status-quo, we are walking on some thin ice with the general wagering public, which as we both know, are our customers.

My biggest problem with todays hearings was that it was a foregone conclusion as to what was going to be said. No one was there to cast doubt on some of the crap that was spewed. Remember that i have been a horsetrainer for a long time. We get the "all the races are fixed" from unknowing people all the time. I tell them yeah they are fixed, we just work 365 days a year from dawn to dusk to cover our tracks.

The funny thing about barbaro and eight belles is that "drugs" didnt play a central role in either tragedy. It is like a rash of NFL players getting killed in auto accidents despite being clean (no DUI's) and the Congress holding hearings on NFL players using steroids because of it.

The theme of todays hearings was supposed to be (if you believe the title) about Breeding, breakdowns and drugs but it seemed that 2 of the topics were hardly touched on as was the second panel who were rushed through so somebody could make a tee time it seemed.

What needed to be done a long time ago was an NFL style PR campaign to basically trick the public into believing what we wanted them to believe, because they are now being tricked into believing what Congress seemingly wants them to believe. Because anyone who believes that the NFL doesn t have a major issue with drugs is kidding themselves as shown by the lineman who the feds are worried about being whacked because he turned into a snitch for them.

Cannon Shell · #**149** 06-19-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

On this score, I think we are talking the same language (and I do much of which you suggest above when at the sales. As for how successful we've been, we'll see when the babies hit the track). My point is that, as with other issues, it surprises me the bs practices that people in the racing industry tolerate as "being part of the game." If it's wrong, it's wrong, and it should be stopped.

I agree but shysters are shysters in any business.

Handicappy · #**150** 06-19-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowgirlintexas

Wow!! Is Steve pumped up today or what?! I believe he actually said the male organ word today!!

Go Steve

Yeh, in my car on the way home I thought I saw his fist coming through the vents. It was a very poor group of individuals who they called. At least Dutrow had the sense to FINALLY figure out how to keep his mouth shut. He never showed.

freddymo · #**151** 06-19-2008, 06:23 PM

Steve is a very PUMPED guy

#**152** 06-19-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowgirlintexas

Wow!! Is Steve pumped up today or what?! I believe he actually said the male organ word today!!

Go Steve

Did he use one of the two p words, the c word, or did he refer to double spheres in one of the many ways?

Riot · #**153** 06-19-2008, 07:48 PM

I'm late listening to the replay now of the first hour of ATR -

YOU GO, STEVE!

What I love is the way you tell it just the way it is!

cowgirlintexas · #**154** 06-19-2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgardn

Did he use one of the two p words, the c word, or did he refer to double spheres in one of the many ways?

He used the nickname for "Richard"

Rupert Pupkin · #**155** 06-20-2008, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Are you even remotely aware of the work that is being done by a host of people throughout the industry on EVERY SINGLE TOPIC that was brought up today? Work that is being diminished and insulted by douchebags and buffoons like Randy Moss who don't know what they're talking about but are accepted as 'authoritative' because of some perceived knowledge gleened from 17 minutes of airtime on ESPN once a month?

Are you kidding me? This was a mockery today. No one who has been working tirelessly to change things in the game, and that have been making progress, were representated.. Their efforts were obfuscated by lies, misrepresentations and innuendo. I'm surprised that someone that makes their living in the game would perpetuate the crap that we just listened to for 4 hours... It's irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished.

Sorry to be harsh about it but accepting the bullsh+t from the likes of Jess Jackson is outrageous.

I have to strongly disagree with you. I think these hearings were a huge positive. This is the first time that I have ever been optimistic that this sport is finally going to be cleaned up. I thought that each and every one of the panel members were eloquent in their testimonies.

You refer to what we heard at the hearings as "crap". You call some of the testimony "lies and misrepresentations". Tell me specifically some of the things that were said that were lies and/or misrepresentations.

I didn't hear any major point that was not true. I pretty much agreed with everything that I heard. I was thrilled that all the things that I've been saying for a long time were finally being talked about.

You say that "It is irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished." You better explain it to me. What is being attempted and accomplished? I didn't realize there was some great conspiracy here. I must be in on the conspiracy too since I not only agreed with pretty much everything that was said at those hearings, but I've been saying many of those same things for a long time.

Danzig · #**156** 06-20-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I doubt Bull would have shown up

bull would take that cane he cracked nasrullah between the eyes with, and dust the senate floor.

Cannon Shell · #**157** 06-20-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have to strongly disagree with you. I think these hearings were a huge positive. This is the first time that I have ever been optimistic that this sport is finally going to be cleaned up. I thought that each and every one of the panel members were eloquent in their testimonies.

You refer to what we heard at the hearings as "crap". You call some of the testimony "lies and misrepresentations". Tell me specifically some of the things that were said that were lies and/or misrepresentations.

I didn't hear any major point that was not true. I pretty much agreed with everything that I heard. I was thrilled that all the things that I've been saying for a long time were finally being talked about.

You say that "It is irresponsible to be unaware of what is actually being attempted and accomplished." You better explain it to me. What is being attempted and accomplished? I didn't realize there was some great conspiracy here. I must be in on the conspiracy too since I not only agreed with pretty much everything that was said at those hearings, but I've been saying many of those same things for a long time.

Rupert

You have to understand that this "hearing" was like a fixed race. The politicians had already predetermined what they want to do, which is CONTROL racings revenue streams, hence the one sided witness list. Can you inagine if the outcry when they held the baseball hearings if they didnt invite the players association reps? Hell no player would have shown up. Arthur Hancock has been saying that the sky is falling since 1990 yet it hasnt. Jack Van Berg was only invited because of a piece in the NY Post where he sounded like a bitter old guy. Jackson employes one of the most penalized trainers in the business yet was never asked about that relationship. Randy Moss has had an on air agenda since the begining of the year.It was a set up. Some of what they said may be true (in theory, since i heard mostly personal opinions that were never backed up with any facts or examples).

But the whole process was a sham. Why wasnt the RMTC represented? Why wasn't the HBPA repesented? Why werent the racetracks represented? Can you agree that this was far from a representative group? just because you agree that the is a problem with drugs doesnt mean you have to think that this was a positive.

Do you not understand that whenever racing has an issue this testimony will be referenced by both the politicians and mainstream media? Do you not understand that when politicians talk of people getting wealthy and huge amounts of revenue and billion dollar industry these are signs that they intend on taking some of that money even though there really isnt any money out there to take? Do you realize that the sport moving forward will look exactly the same on the track as it does now?

Think I'm wrong about that? Let me give you a brief reminder of what has happened in the last 10 years. When I got my trainers license in 1999 there was wide spread milkshaking, wide spread EPO use, zero steroid regulation, wide spread use of shockwave machines right up to the time horses went to the paddock, in KY we were allowed to give anti inflamatories 4 hours before post, no detention barns in NY, no surveliience barns in CA, virtually no investigators anywhere, cocaine positives, steroids in sales horses, etc. As of Jan 1, 2009 we will have dealt with all of these issues yet people like you continue to say that everything is out of control and nothing has been done. So when some of us scratch our heads when you guys complain that nothing as been done maybe you can understand where we are coming from.

Has enough been done? of course not but in my lifetime more has been done in the past 4 years than the first 36. What exactly are the feds going to do? Ban steroids? that has already been accomplished for the most part. I never heard one of the illustrious panelists talk about the so called designer drugs that the guys in CA that you despise so much are using. They arent gaining an advantage using drugs that everybody has access to.

If you love the sport in any capacity I fail to see how this will wind up a positive in the end. Higher takeout, less money for owners, and the same guys winning all the races. The breeding aspect cant be legislated and as such will not change unless guys start buying slow horses and ignoring the fast ones. Horses will still breakdown, unfortunately in big races too. Not much will change but it will cost us a lot. This is a hugely complex issue which is not exactly a government specialty.