Lava Man back in training?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

While I don't disagree with much of anything you're saying...since you asked, it's only been like two weeks since 9-year old Cloudy's Knight came back from over a year off to win a Grade III.

Ok we have 1 out of hundreds of thousands. Any more?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Ok we have 1 out of hundreds of thousands. Any more?

Just giving an example when an example was requested.

[freddymo]

[b]But my main point was that the odds of him coming back and competing at a high level are so remote that when weighed against the possibility of something really negative happening it just isnt worth it.B]They are going to try and race the horse again. The worst case scenario is they decide to place the horse in claimers, however distasteful that would be, he is a racehorse, deemed property by the law. If the horse is being well maintained and vetted appropiately they or anyone else that owns him can do what they like with him. Obviously they aren't spending 10's of thousands on stem cell crap to get him in 8k claimers. You and I have a better shot of getting into a car accident then this horse has of breaking down on the track. I really am fascinated by the rousing concern for a horse training for a comeback.

While there is zero chance I would ever have tried this don't you have to support the right for people to do what they would like with there horse? Who was taking there kids to see Lava Man at an old age home anyway???..Most people don't even see there own grandparents never mind a juiced gelding.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Amazing that my qualifications are now the topic. How exactly do you know what i know? I do know that I know quite a bit about the practical application of Stem Cell therapy in equines due to the fact I have had horses in my care receive the treatment (the first one was years ago by the way-it aint that new), the fact that a close friend who happens to be a surgeon worked extensively on Stemcell research and has been one of its biggest proponents (and yeah maybe just maybe we have had a conversation about this and similar scenarios), and I am pretty sure that I know far more from a practical standpoint about veteranarian medicine than anyone here.

When I say "fledgling" I mean to say that stem cell therapy is an emerging therapy, with research still ongoing and efficacy still being determined. This is especially true as far as it applies to joint therapy. As you said, many horses have received the treatment for other types of injuries such as bowed tendons.

As with most new therapies for basically "irreversible" conditions, vets and their clients get carried away and start using them unjudiciously, applying them where perhaps they don't belong or won't be as effective as in an ideal scenario, in hopes that they can "keep or horse going" or "shorten the layup time" or "make them a different horse".

Where does the Lava Man scenario fit? I suppose somewhere in the middle. As you said, his age to a fair degree makes him a less than ideal candidate. However, the fact that he received treatment under ideal conditions (ie, with primary surgical treatment first, subsequent stall rest, followed by a gradual return to training) makes him a case worth following.

I'm with you in that its very unlikely he'll return at a top class level, and I realize that is what his connections are gunning for, but from a sideline perspective I think it would be pretty signifcant event if he was able to return and be competitive at least in state-bred stakes, even if such success would ultimately be only a minor feather in his cap.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I agree O'Neill wouldn't intentionally endanger Lava Man. But I also thought that about his handling of Itty Bitty Pretty. And then she was dead on the racetrack... O'Neill, who already has a checkered resume, is opening himself up for a ton of criticism by agreeing to train him back. That's his decision and I believe it reflects poorly on him. But this set of connections has lied to the public once and shown poor judgment in a similar scenario. That is established and irrefutable. And the racing-interested public should be reminded of it broadly.

I'm not an O'Neill guy but he is in a tough position here. The horse is coming back no matter what he thinks about it. So wouldn't he rather have the horse in his barn where he can monitor it closely than let it go to another barn where he loses all control over the horse's fate? If Tracy Farmer went and told Nick Zito that he was bringing Commentator back would you really think Nick would refuse and let the horse go to another trainer? I think he would want that horse in his barn so he can closely monitor him instead of letting him go to another barn where the trainer might not be as emotionally attached to the horse and might take more risks.

[Indian Charlie]

Commentator was retired?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Amazing that my qualifications are now the topic. How exactly do you know what i know? I do know that I know quite a bit about the practical application of Stem Cell therapy .

So you know, of course, that you can't broadly and generally compare stem cell use in tendons to stem cell use in joints.

[Riot]

But my main point was that the odds of him coming back and competing at a high level are so remote that when weighed against the possibility of something really negative happening it just isnt worth it.

Rechipping an ankle or developing a new OCD, while probably career-ending at this point, isn't something catastrophic. It would have to be something else.

and I am pretty sure that I know far more from a practical standpoint about veteranarian medicine than anyone here.

You go with that.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Riot

Rechipping an ankle or developing a new OCD, while probably career-ending at this point, isn't something catastrophic. It would have to be something else.



You go with that.

I hate watching people not in the business tell people that are in the business stuff that they really know but those in the business think they can't possibly know it cause they aren't in the business. I'm going to take out an owner's license so that I can further comment on this story, from an in the business perspective.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

So you know, of course, that you can't broadly and generally compare stem cell use in tendons to stem cell use in joints.

Yes and the success levels have still been pretty spotty especially in older horses with poor prior joint health. You know kind of like Lava Man?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Rechipping an ankle or developing a new OCD, while probably career-ending at this point, isn't something catastrophic. It would have to be something else.



You go with that.

Do you really want to go there?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I hate watching people not in the business tell people that are in the business stuff that they really know but those in the business think they can't possibly know it cause they aren't in the business. I'm going to take out an owner's license so that I can further comment on this story, from an in the business perspective.

Why exactly do you think you are as qualified as a horse trainer or vet to speak about health issues regarding racehorses ? Your opinion is based strictly on what exactly? Articles in the Bloodhorse or DRF?

You are correct in your assumption that there are those within the industry that think they know a lot more than they really do. But that is a whole other topic.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

When I say "fledgling" I mean to say that stem cell therapy is an emerging therapy, with research still ongoing and efficacy still being determined. This is especially true as far as it applies to joint therapy. As you said, many horses have received the treatment for other types of injuries such as bowed tendons.

As with most new therapies for basically "irreversible" conditions, vets and their clients get carried away and start using them unjudiciously, applying them where perhaps they don't belong or won't be as effective as in an ideal scenario, in hopes that they can "keep or horse going" or "shorten the layup time" or "make them a different horse".

Where does the Lava Man scenario fit? I suppose somewhere in the middle. As you said, his age to a fair degree makes him a less than ideal candidate. However, the fact that he received treatment under ideal conditions (ie, with primary surgical treatment first, subsequent stall rest, followed by a gradual return to training) makes him a case worth following.

I'm with you in that its very unlikely he'll return at a top class level, and I realize that is what his connections are gunning for, but from a sideline perspective I think it would be pretty signifcant event if he was able to return and be competitive at least in state-bred stakes, even if such success would ultimately be only a minor feather in his cap.

While i am as open minded as anyone in regard to new therapies and techniques, this entire scenario and the way it came about just feels like a mistake. The funny thing is that so many of the new things that come along that seem to hold up so much promise wind up as failures or simply as minor help. Radon seeds were the hot thing about 15 years ago. They were injected into troubled areas like curbs or splints and basically cured them right away. The problem was the damn things "aged" the bone and made it brittle. So when horses began snapping their legs off that new technology was suddenly not so hot anymore. While stem cell therapy is a much more advanced idea, it is still far from a miracle cure which is what he needs. I hope he doesnt breakdown because that is bad for all of us who love the game. But I remain skeptical that this situation will have the ending that will be positive.

[GPK]

You're a better man than me Chuck. Some people around here are enough to drive a man to drink.

Have a beer or 10 for me while you are at it.

[2MinsToPost]

Every time, for the most part, that I see the name Lava Man I am reminded of a losing wager. Man I really thought that horse was a winner that weekend.

No matter, cause I did and still do love that horse.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yes and the success levels have still been pretty spotty especially in older horses with poor prior joint health. You know kind of like Lava Man?

Really? That opinion is at great odds with the current accumulation of clinical experience as documented in the veterinary literature.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you really want to go there?

Yeah, I will. I'll take the opinion of the horses' vet, Doug Herthel, over yours.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yeah, I will. I'll take the opinion of the horses' vet, Doug Herthel, over yours.

Whatever. You and Dr Herthel can predict with accuracy the type of injuries that will occur? Yeah right. The rest of his legs and joints are still 9 years old and have been subject to lots of pounding. The most catastropic injuries usually occur when the horse appears completely sound. But of course with your vast experience you already knew that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Really? That opinion is at great odds with the current accumulation of clinical experience as documented in the veterinary literature.

Some people read about things, some people actually do things. I prefer to listen to the latter.

So she knows the vet? Definite hack fo' sho. Any human with a pulse is suspect when communicating face-to-face with that moron.