Summer Bird could be HOY

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

True but in 1980 that would mean a lot more than now. Winning older horse races in the fall as a 3 yo really isnt much of an accomplishment when the 3 yos are better horses. No one is saying that his career was anything but successful, hell he only finished off the board 1 time but compared to truly accomplished horses he doesnt really stack up that well. Plus the way he tailed off and struggled with clearly inferior horses at the tail end of a 16 race career is telling.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't say he struggled because he was tailing off. In each race, the others obviously knew he was the horse to beat and rode to try to beat him. The pace was very, very slow in the Foster and JCGC and he still overcame it. In the Woodward, it was insanely fast.

You should know margin of victory doesn't always indicate how superior a horse is. Of course, those who think RA can't get 10f based on the results of the Preakness and Woodward are making the same mistake.

[Smooth Operator]

Bush-league call by Jackson

Track will be dry and fair at Anita ... weather will be gorgeous

BIGGEST day on the racing calendar ... multiple international runners suiting up ... and the 'great' filly will be standing around in some barn in KY.

Disgraceful


If Jackson actually believes that the racing surface beat Curlin last year, he simply hasn't come to grips with reality yet.


Would love to see Birdie roll ... and the voters penalize Jackson for not letting the filly compete at the WORLD THOROUGHBRED CHAMPIONSHIPS...

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Bush-league call by Jackson

Track will be dry and fair at Anita ... weather will be gorgeous

BIGGEST day on the racing calendar ... multiple international runners suiting up ... and the 'great' filly will be standing around in some barn in KY.

Disgraceful


If Jackson actually believes that the racing surface beat Curlin last year, he simply hasn't come to grips with reality yet.


Would love to see Birdie roll ... and the voters penalize Jackson for not letting the filly compete at the WORLD THOROUGHBRED CHAMPIONSHIPS...

The Breeder's Cup has sabotaged so many formerly great races, I think it is a good thing that a great horse intentionally skips it. It is even better since the BC sabotaged itself by running the races on rubber two years in a row.

Imagine if the first Breeder's Cup had been run on turf, which is a lot closer to synthetics than dirt. Would it have taken off like it did? My guess is no, so why now are we supposed to pretend dirt racing doesn't matter because it is being run on a surface nothing like dirt for two years running?

[gamblin4ever]

Are you sure RA not running in B/C. If Jackson thinks she has HOY sewn up then she wont run, but if there is a chance she loses HOY for not running he might have her run. It's still too early to know.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

It's not impossible to beat her if the race dynamics are similiar to the Preakness and or the Woodward. The Summer Bird we have seen the last 2 races would have given her alot of trouble, I find your reasoning confusing you like SB, you bet the crap out of him but you cannot entertain he can beat her, I know he would be more than a handful for her to handle given the right scenario. I give her credit for beating the likes of Macho Again and Mine That Bird in those 2 races but they are nowhere the horse that Summer Bird is, we can only hope these 2 will meet somewhere down the line, otherwise she can dine off of that Haskell win the rest of her career over SB until Jackson and Assmussen come to a consensus to try SB again.

i dont get how you give Rachel no credit for kicking the crap outta summer bird, and then say his last two races are this and that when she kicked the crap out of him the race before his last two races! Its like you feel he got SOOO much better between the Haskel and Travers when he is the same horse!

It makes no sense. She ran over the SAME horse who won the Travers and JCGC. SB is a real nice colt, but damn, the performance on the race track just doesnt cut it for ya does it?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by JerseyJ

Rachel Alexandra is just simply a better horse than Summer Bird no matter the race, track condition, distance, what have you. Rachel ran against Summer Bird in the Haskell over ideal conditions for Summer Bird on his favorite track which is the slop, as well as in his new style. There is no possible case that could made that Summer Bird is a better horse than Rachel Alexandra.

thank you!

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

It makes no sense. She ran over the SAME horse who won the Travers and JCGC. SB is a real nice colt, but damn, the performance on the race track just doesnt cut it for ya does it?

I sit here and I read this **** and I just shake my head. HOW EXACTLY is SB a 'real nice' horse? Or, even better than that, according to some? Who has he beaten? The older horses all suck. He got the best possible setup in the Belmont. And, he basically beat nothing in his past 2 races. The Travers field was a ****in joke. Unless, of course, we want to think along with all the 'speed' freaks that Quality Road is a superstar on anything other than a souped up speed favoring track.

I really want to see SB run in the Classic and try to ***** his way to another perfect trip against some of the more talented, long winded Euro's. Enough with this plug.

POLY will expose this plug for what it is: an OPPORTUNISTIC DIRT runner. Sooner or later all these horses have to show what they have on a FAIR surface. And, seeing how so many of the DIRT LOVERS are constantly whining about POLY, I guess they don't like their 'fast horses' getting bent over in fair races. Sucks when you're accustomed to betting the BIASED way. Times are changing.

He probably won over 7 figures with that 9/2 shot Saturday because he is strutting around here like a Steven H Crist/Andy Beyer love child.

To say Summer Bird is a plug is borderline retarded.

[CSC]

[quote=Antitrust32]

i dont get how you give Rachel no credit for kicking the crap outta summer bird,

I love it when people refer to the Haskell as the defining race in the legacy of how much better(not my belief however)Rachel is to Summer Bird based on one isolated race, how's this scenario SB kicked the crap out of Macho Again in The JCGC, a horse that Rachel was life and death to beat in the Woodward a month earlier, thus Summer Bird must have improved(actually he has) since the Haskell that Rachel isn't in the same league as him now.(present tense)

That's the problem with looking at things in black and white. There is no medium ground, no room for common sense analysis. Just as it is illogical to not see that Summer Bird improved since The Haskell, that the track at Monmouth favored RA more than SB, and that that race was at 1 1/8 and not the 1 1/4 of the JCBC all at a time when he was still getting better.(present tense) You go keep believing RA is 7 lengths better than Summer Bird is, that's cool with me, and I'll go on not believing that Summer Bird is 10 lengths better the RA since he beat Macho Again by pole Sat. Which makes more sense?

[Antitrust32]

[quote=CSC]

For me I respect what she has done, you have to be not a fan of racing to not respect her year, I just don't like how it is being portrayed that she beat Summer Bird at 1 1/8 at a point of time when he was still developing and she was at her peak and though we can debate that race till the cows come home, that race far suited her talents more than Summer Bird's. He lost fair and square, okay but he took her on when the Haskell suited her game to a tee, and due to the preemptive strike JJ had in mind for HOY, Summer Bird will not have a chance to avenge that loss. Dubious or not that is the way it is.

He won the Classic Belmont, then "developed" in the Haskell, and then won the Travers & JCGC.

You make no sense. He only "developed" in that race because its the only way you can make your argument.

[slotdirt]

To be fair in recompense, did it really require much developing for Summer Bird to dispatch with Dunkirk, Mine that Bird, and Charitable Man in the Belmont?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

Are you sure RA not running in B/C. If Jackson thinks she has HOY sewn up then she wont run, but if there is a chance she loses HOY for not running he might have her run. It's still too early to know.

yes, she will NOT be in the BC. If she had been in full training for the month of September I would say I guess there could be a possibility of Jackson changing his mind, but since she has not been in full training she will 100% not be there.

[NTamm1215]

I'd love to know how anyone could say that the track playing more towards Rachel Alexandra's strengths helped her beat SB in the Haskell when the fact of the matter is that they were basically eyeball to eyeball around the turn. If anything, he was short from running in two Triple Crown races, but she ran in the Oaks and Preakness herself.

The excuse wagon could go on and on and on but the bottom line is that Rachel Alexandra beat Summer Bird like a drum at Mth. Is he a better horse now? Probably but unfortunately we'll have to wait until next year to find out if he's now better than her.

NT

[dalakhani]

[quote=Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

He won the Classic Belmont, then "developed" in the Haskell, and then won the Travers & JCGC.

You make no sense. He only "developed" in that race because its the only way you can make your argument.

Is it fair to say that Curlin was a more developed horse at the BC his three year old year than he was at Monmouth a few months earlier? Was Tiznow the same horse at the BC in 2000 as he was in the Pacific classic a few months earlier?

I think you can find plenty of examples, especially in three year olds, where there is rapid development and improvement within just a few months.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I sit here and I read this **** and I just shake my head. HOW EXACTLY is SB a 'real nice' horse? Or, even better than that, according to some? Who has he beaten? The older horses all suck. He got the best possible setup in the Belmont. And, he basically beat nothing in his past 2 races. The Travers field was a ****in joke. Unless, of course, we want to think along with all the 'speed' freaks that Quality Road is a superstar on anything other than a souped up speed favoring track.

I really want to see SB run in the Classic and try to ***** his way to another perfect trip against some of the more talented, long winded Euro's. Enough with this plug.

POLY will expose this plug for what it is: an OPPORTUNISTIC DIRT runner. Sooner or later all these horses have to show what they have on a FAIR surface. And, seeing how so many of the DIRT LOVERS are constantly whining about POLY, I guess they don't like their 'fast horses' getting bent over in fair races. Sucks when you're accustomed to betting the BIASED way. Times are changing.

Wow! I get all this for calling SB a "real nice colt". What am I supposed to call the Belmont/Travers/JCGC winner? He sucks?

And I agree that he will not win the Classic. Every single post I've made about him and the classic were the same as what you just said.

He deserves credit for the races he's won. He's a real nice colt. He's no Rachel and he wont be winning the classic. The best turf horse out there will be winning the classic.

Why do you hate dirt so much and do you really feel that Poly plays like a dirt track more than a turf track? Poly is basically Turf II

[CSC]

[quote=Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by CSC

He won the Classic Belmont, then "developed" in the Haskell, and then won the Travers & JCGC.

You make no sense. He only "developed" in that race because its the only way you can make your argument.

You fail to understand he is a better horse today(present) than he was in the Haskell or Belmont, what is hard to accept or understand about this from a 3 yr old colt that broke his Mdn in Mar of this yr? Again not to reiterate The JCGC and The BC Classic is at 1 1/4 a he distance he has already proven to be very adept at running at. RA hasn't and I suspect she will have to one day so that Jess can have his legacy preserved for her.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

You make no sense.

Hey, that's what I said! Stop stealing my stuff!

Do you like though his Macho Again analogy where he completely disregards what happened in those two races?

And his adamant refusal to address that?

[CSC]

[quote=dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Is it fair to say that Curlin was a more developed horse at the BC his three year old year than he was at Monmouth a few months earlier? Was Tiznow the same horse at the BC in 2000 as he was in the Pacific classic a few months earlier?

I think you can find plenty of examples, especially in three year olds, where there is rapid development and improvement within just a few months.

The point is alot of smart handicappers here recognize Summer Bird was a better horse in the Travers and JCGC, showing tractibility, stamina, and finish in those races, the beyers will of 110-111 will back this up. The issue we are addressing here is, is to the crowd that still believe that RA is 7 lengths better than SB is, my point all along as much as people keep wanting to make this a Haskell argument, is that in the present day, looking forward RA would have had an extreme challenge beating Summer Bird today and had she run in the JCGC she would have lost, This is what I am talking about future races, the races to come, not what has happened.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hey, that's what I said! Stop stealing my stuff!

Do you like though his Macho Again analogy where he completely disregards what happened in those two races?

And his adamant refusal to address that?

On the refusal to address issues, I wrote you a nice long reply yesterday you ignored, you out of smart replies? Other than 'you make no sense'. Just brillant!

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I sit here and I read this **** and I just shake my head. HOW EXACTLY is SB a 'real nice' horse? Or, even better than that, according to some? Who has he beaten? The older horses all suck. He got the best possible setup in the Belmont. And, he basically beat nothing in his past 2 races. The Travers field was a ****in joke. Unless, of course, we want to think along with all the 'speed' freaks that Quality Road is a superstar on anything other than a souped up speed favoring track.

I really want to see SB run in the Classic and try to ***** his way to another perfect trip against some of the more talented, long winded Euro's. Enough with this plug.

POLY will expose this plug for what it is: an OPPORTUNISTIC DIRT runner. Sooner or later all these horses have to show what they have on a FAIR surface. And, seeing how so many of the DIRT LOVERS are constantly whining about POLY, I guess they don't like their 'fast horses' getting bent over in fair races. Sucks when you're accustomed to betting the BIASED way. Times are changing.

You are so full of **** it flows out of your eyes.

I guess Easy Goer was a plug, too.