Barbaro (the Champ)

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by prudery

There is no conformation analysis in this post . A comparison to three great horses you are " reminded " of which were nothing alike in build says nothing . Which parts of whom are you comparing ?? What turf types do Barbaro look like and how ?? Same for Bernardini . As mentioned, Seattle Slew was not a paragon for the body beautiful . He was awkwardly put together. Conformation people talk of bone, length of cannons, symmetry, joint angles, general correctness which indicates efficiency and soundness . Secretariat was considered by a panel of experts in fields in and out of racing to be a horse whose conformation indicated that he could do anything a sporting horse of any discipline could do---THE horse selected to have this physical makeup---over horses of all breeds . While Bernardini and Barbaro may be fine physical specimens whom you have seen on TV and possibly in still pictures, you give no serious evidence for your comparisons and critiques . Opinion and analysis are very different .

If you want me to go into a long analysis on Barbaro's and Bernardini's strengths and weaknesses in their conformation I will because I have the knowledge to do so, and learned from one of the best in the nation. Carole Moore is a legend in that department. Get ready to pull out a horse judging manual or a veterinary encyclopedia. In fact, I could actually tear both Bernardini and Barbaro apart in that department. They aren't perfectly conformed from a horse show world judging standpoint, but from a horse racing standpoint, they are certainly built to run. Form follows function. Secretariat is definitely not the best physical specimen there is, but he was perfect for racing. Buckpasser is one that comes to mind, but I would have to really look into the Thoroughbred breed to see what I could find. Also, I have found the perfectly conformed horse for another breed...one that stands out about all the rest. One that the horse show world agrees is actually the best. A unanimous champion. His name is Magnum Pysche, and for an Arabian, he is as close to perfect as you get. I cannot find a single fault in him. He has a perfectly flat croup, a perfect shoulder, perfect angles, a perfect head, a perfect back, perfect cannon bones, perfect forearm muscle...perfect everything and the world agrees.

Watch the entire video. He is a legend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkPV-k9Mvbk

Secretariat was not perfectly built but he was certainly very, very good. I find that most of the horse racing conformation analysis experts in the horse racing world aren't really experts in overall conformation analysis to the rest of us. I have actually been quite baffled by some of the "good" conformation horses racing analysis experts have put up because, in truth, the horses had horrible conformation. See, in the horse show world, we actually have hundreds of classes that actually judge conformation. This is what I am good at. They are called halter or model classes.

Oh yeah, and I judge all breeds! Prudgery you are right in that pictures are can be very misleading, but video is less so. I learned a lot of what I do know from watching videos.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

If you want me to go into a long analysis on Barbaro's and Bernardini's strengths and weaknesses in their conformation I will because I have the knowledge to do so, and learned from one of the best in the nation. Carole Moore is a legend in that department. Get ready to pull out a horse judging manual or a veterinary encyclopedia. In fact, I could actually tear both Bernardini and Barbaro apart in that department. They aren't perfectly conformed from a horse show world judging standpoint, but from a horse racing standpoint, they are certainly built to run. Form follows function. Secretariat is definitely not the best physical specimen there is, but he was perfect for racing. Buckpasser is one that comes to mind, but I would have to really look into the Thoroughbred breed to see what I could find. Also, I have found the perfectly conformed horse for another breed...one that stands out about all the rest. One that the horse show world agrees is actually the best. A unanimous champion. His name is Magnum Pysche, and for an Arabian, he is as close to perfect as you get. I cannot find a single fault in him. He has a perfectly flat croup, a perfect shoulder, perfect angles, a perfect head, a perfect back, perfect cannon bones, perfect forearm muscle...perfect everything and the world agrees.

Watch the entire video. He is a legend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkPV-k9Mvbk

Secretariat was not perfectly built but he was certainly very, very good. I find that most of the horse racing conformation analysis experts in the horse racing world aren't really experts in overall conformation analysis to the rest of us. I have actually been quite baffled by some of the "good" conformation horses racing analysis experts have put up because, in truth, the horses had horrible conformation. See, in the horse show world, we actually have hundreds of classes that actually judge conformation. This is what I am good at. They are called halter or model classes.

Thank you for your response . As I said, Secretariat was judged by persons OUTSIDE the racing field to be perfectly made for any sporting discipline, NOT just racing . Nowhere did I say he was perfect . I always felt his feet were a tad small---as halter horses are horribly known for, especially in the QH world . I know about the horse show world . Plenty of fat and fads as well as quality assessments . Good confirmation may be more geared for speed and efficiency in the racehorse, but the principles are the same --balance,strength, efficiency and symmetry, always . Show people aren't used to the stripped down look of the racehorse which often sports the upside down neck and the like . The yearling sales, conversely, are more show-like, as the yearlings are fat and curvaceous for eye appeal . I assume you are a h/j girl . I am dressage . What looks good to you guys doesn't always apply to us--and most dq's are not Tbred fans . Still, the basics are universal .

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by prudery

Thank you for your response . As I said, Secretariat was judged by persons OUTSIDE the racing field to be perfectly made for any sporting discipline, NOT just racing . Nowhere did I say he was perfect . I always felt his feet were a tad small---as halter horses are horribly known for, especially in the QH world . I know about the horse show world . Plenty of fat and fads as well as quality assessments . Good confirmation may be more geared for speed and efficiency in the racehorse, but the principles are the same --balance,strength, efficiency and symmetry, always . Show people aren't used to the stripped down look of the racehorse which often sports the upside down neck and the like . The yearling sales, conversely, are more show-like, as the yearlings are fat and curvaceous for eye appeal . I assume you are a h/j girl . I am dressage . What looks good to you guys doesn't always apply to us--and most dq's are not Tbred fans . Still, the basics are universal .

I'm a hunter/jumper person, but I love dressage as well. Other disciplines of riding could learn a ton from dressage for sure. It's tough to find well conformed thoroughbreds in the dressage world since the warmbloods have taken over, isn't it? LOL

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm a hunter/jumper person, but I love dressage as well. Other disciplines of riding could learn a ton from dressage for sure. It's tough to find well conformed thoroughbreds in the dressage world since the warmbloods have taken over, isn't it? LOL

Actually, all riding is dressage in theory . With Tbreds, the downhill look is definately not dressage material, but there are plenty of uphill guys . The big issue with the Tbred is whether they have a strong back, loins and the patience required . I watched the Magnum Arab guy video . Lovely elastic horse, but in halter classes don't they have to stand square ??? He doesn't behind .

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by prudery

Thank you for your response . As I said, Secretariat was judged by persons OUTSIDE the racing field to be perfectly made for any sporting discipline, NOT just racing . Nowhere did I say he was perfect . I always felt his feet were a tad small---as halter horses are horribly known for, especially in the QH world . I know about the horse show world . Plenty of fat and fads as well as quality assessments . Good confirmation may be more geared for speed and efficiency in the racehorse, but the principles are the same --balance,strength, efficiency and symmetry, always . Show people aren't used to the stripped down look of the racehorse which often sports the upside down neck and the like . The yearling sales, conversely, are more show-like, as the yearlings are fat and curvaceous for eye appeal . I assume you are a h/j girl . I am dressage . What looks good to you guys doesn't always apply to us--and most dq's are not Tbred fans . Still, the basics are universal .

Yes, Secretariat's hunter jumpers are very good. I actually show against one of his grandsons regularly, but Chucker always kicks his a s s. Chucker is a very good horse though who has kicked a lot of horses a s s e s in the show ring. I'm a dressage, h/j, and western pleasure girl. Weird combination I know, but I love the suspension, fluidness, and perfection of dressage, the adrenaline of jumping, and the easy soft gait of a good western pleasure horse. I've also had the pleasure of riding a champion padded walking horse who won at the great Celebration Horse Show in Memphis, TN. I've won at very big shows in all three. My horse Chucker has won at breed shows, open shows, 4-H shows and C, B, and A circuit shows in model/halter classes, dressage, equitation, jumping, and hunter. I love that horse. I would like to see your horses if you have any pictures of them. I think that dressage is just such a beautiful sport. My dream is to own a Don Schufro or a Gribaldi foal one day. I'm not really a TB fan either unless the right one comes a long. A good horse is a good horse no matter the breed.

Thanks for the crash course in Conformation 101
Barbaro & Bernardini I'm sure are more than adequate
but at this point I'm not sure how it pertains to deciding a champion
Showing Up MAY go to the BCC, beating Bernardini would be poetic justice
and certainly crown Barbaro KING of the 3's in doing so!

Oh yeah? Well I can fart the national anthem.

Back on topic: Barbaro as of right now probably holds a slight lead over Bern for top three year old due to the sentimental vote. BUT if Bern wins the JCGC and runs in the money in the Classic, then he absolutely has to win the award. Anything less would be robbery.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by prudery

Actually, all riding is dressage in theory . With Tbreds, the downhill look is definately not dressage material, but there are plenty of uphill guys . The big issue with the Tbred is whether they have a strong back, loins and the patience required . I watched the Magnum Arab guy video . Lovely elastic horse, but in halter classes don't they have to stand square ??? He doesn't behind .

It definitely is in theory, but not all people will work on training level-1st level which I believe is imperative in most other disciplines (especially jumping.) All of the lesson horses out at the barn with maybe the exception of one do at least first level dressage, most do 2nd level. I did an internship at a trakehner farm (primarily dressage) in North Florida when I was 17. I learned so much that summer. I just started riding again the past several months and I am so out of shape.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by prudery

Actually, all riding is dressage in theory . With Tbreds, the downhill look is definately not dressage material, but there are plenty of uphill guys . The big issue with the Tbred is whether they have a strong back, loins and the patience required . I watched the Magnum Arab guy video . Lovely elastic horse, but in halter classes don't they have to stand square ??? He doesn't behind .

Well, they show the Arabs differently. They show them as being more saddle horse type. They want them standing with their hind end out from under them a bit like the Saddlebreds and the Walkers. See, in all three of these breeds, a strong short back, and strong croup are highly desirable. Thus, the standing of their hind legs out behind them gives them the appearance of having a flatter croup. With these breeds, as I'm sure you know, a flatter croup, and a short, strong back is desirable because a flat croup puts the withers higher than the croup. This way, it is easier for them to rock their weight back to thier hind end and lift their shoulders higher. It is then easier for the animal to lift his legs up higher resulting in more action. Magmun Psyche really didn't have to stand out like that to see what a fantastic croup he has.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Yes, Secretariat's hunter jumpers are very good. I actually show against one of his grandsons regularly, but Chucker always kicks his a s s. Chucker is a very good horse though who has kicked a lot of horses a s s e s in the show ring. I'm a dressage, h/j, and western pleasure girl. Weird combination I know, but I love the suspension, fluidness, and perfection of dressage, the adrenaline of jumping, and the easy soft gait of a good western pleasure horse. I've also had the pleasure of riding a champion padded walking horse who won at the great Celebration Horse Show in Memphis, TN. I've won at very big shows in all three. My horse Chucker has won at breed shows, open shows, 4-H shows and C, B, and A circuit shows in model/halter classes, dressage, equitation, jumping, and hunter. I love that horse. I would like to see your horses if you have any pictures of them. I think that dressage is just such a beautiful sport. My dream is to own a Don Schufro or a Gribaldi foal one day. I'm not really a TB fan either unless the right one comes a long. A good horse is a good horse no matter the breed.

I am horseless at the moment, but ride an OTTB with issues . I am a TB fan. Have ridden other breeds--Morgans, QH, a few Walkers, WBs, and a foxtrotter . Rode an advanced reiner once----superschooled that did spins---very dizzying . We are hijacking this thread, you know .

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

It definitely is in theory, but not all people will work on training level-1st level which I believe is imperative in most other disciplines (especially jumping.) All of the lesson horses out at the barn with maybe the exception of one do at least first level dressage, most do 2nd level. I did an internship at a trakehner farm (primarily dressage) in North Florida when I was 17. I learned so much that summer. I just started riding again the past several months and I am so out of shape.

My horse can do up to third level. I think that dressage is especially important for open jumpers and big EQ horses. My theory is that all hunters should be trained to first level. Of course, they really all are trained to training level aren't they.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by prudery

I am horseless at the moment, but ride an OTTB with issues . I am a TB fan. Have ridden other breeds--Morgans, QH, a few Walkers, WBs, and a foxtrotter . Rode an advanced reiner once----superschooled that did spins---very dizzying . We are hijacking this thread, you know .

I'm meant that I'm not a TB fan in the dressage ring because the Hanoverians, Holsteiners, and other warmbloods seem to have more overall suspension, length of stride, smoothness, and conformation as a breed than the TBs do. It is a lot harder to find a good TB for that discipline than it is to find a good warmblood. Overall, I'm a huge TB fan of course! They still rule the hunter ring, although the warmbloods seem to be taking over the jumper ring.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

My horse can do up to third level. I think that dressage is especially important for open jumpers and big EQ horses. My theory is that all hunters should be trained to first level. Of course, they really all are trained to training level aren't they.

Not all horses can do a training level test. Trust me. LOL

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Not all horses can do a training level test. Trust me. LOL

Ain't that the truth .

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Oh yeah? Well I can fart the national anthem.

Back on topic: Barbaro as of right now probably holds a slight lead over Bern for top three year old due to the sentimental vote. BUT if Bern wins the JCGC and runs in the money in the Classic, then he absolutely has to win the award. Anything less would be robbery.

runs in the money in the classic...? Well maybe, Flower Alley was second, so was Medaglia...both were also Travers winners correct? When is the last 3 to win the BCC? it was Tiznow right? I suppose he'd move ahead of him witha Jockey Club win, but it seems to be coming up a bit light, just like the fields in all the other races Bernardini wins...

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by prudery

I am horseless at the moment, but ride an OTTB with issues . I am a TB fan. Have ridden other breeds--Morgans, QH, a few Walkers, WBs, and a foxtrotter . Rode an advanced reiner once----superschooled that did spins---very dizzying . We are hijacking this thread, you know .

That's cool that you ride an OTTB. Those definitely aren't the easiest to handle. I would love to ride an advanced reining horse. I have some friends that are into that but have never ridden any of their horses. I added a whole bunch of information to my Magnum Psyche thread.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by prudery

Thank you for your response . As I said, Secretariat was judged by persons OUTSIDE the racing field to be perfectly made for any sporting discipline, NOT just racing . Nowhere did I say he was perfect . I always felt his feet were a tad small---as halter horses are horribly known for, especially in the QH world . I know about the horse show world . Plenty of fat and fads as well as quality assessments . Good confirmation may be more geared for speed and efficiency in the racehorse, but the principles are the same --balance,strength, efficiency and symmetry, always . Show people aren't used to the stripped down look of the racehorse which often sports the upside down neck and the like . The yearling sales, conversely, are more show-like, as the yearlings are fat and curvaceous for eye appeal . I assume you are a h/j girl . I am dressage . What looks good to you guys doesn't always apply to us--and most dq's are not Tbred fans . Still, the basics are universal .

You are exactly right in everything you said.

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

runs in the money in the classic...? Well maybe, Flower Alley was second, so was Medaglia...both were also Travers winners correct? When is the last 3 to win the BCC? it was Tiznow right? I suppose he'd move ahead of him witha Jockey Club win, but it seems to be coming up a bit light, just like the fields in all the other races Bernardini wins...

It's all a matter of opinion. You like Barbaro. I like him as well and was pessimistic about Bernardini.

The Travers changed my opinion. Just like Lava Man, (who I still think is a fluke) all Bernardini can do is run in the big races. It's not his fault the competition is lacking. His Beyer was a 116. Not too many of the 'what if' horses like Barbaro and the others could have much say in that kind of a performance.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Not all horses can do a training level test. Trust me. LOL

Maybe not well or maybe in a disaster...but all horses who show unless they are strictly walk/trot horses should be able to walk, trot, canter, stop, and circle. Otherwise...what would they show in? Let me rephrase that "All horses who place well or behave in h/j shows in the walk, trot, canter classes should be able to do a training test.

[TitanSooner]

Why would you say Lava Man is a fluke? Oh wait, that's right, he's from California...