Ky Derby matchups

[Dunbar]

TheGreek.com has Derby matchups posted. I don't remember matchups being offered this early. Bets only count if both horses start:

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown and Pyro vs The Field Both horses must start for action.
2107 Big Brown and Pyro +150
2108 The Field -180

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown vs Pyro Both horses must start for action.
2109 Big Brown +100
2110 Pyro -125

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Colonel John vs Tale of Ekati Both horses must start for action.
2111 Colonel John -160
2112 Tale of Ekati +130

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown vs Colonel John Both horses must start for action.
2113 Big Brown -165
2114 Colonel John +135

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Smooth Air vs War Pass Both horses must start for action.
2115 Smooth Air +110
2116 War Pass -140

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Court Vision vs Visionaire Both horses must start for action.
2117 Court Vision -110
2118 Visionaire -110

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Z Fortune vs Z Humor Both horses must start for action.
2119 Z Fortune -110
2120 Z Humor -110

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Denis of Cork vs El Gato Malo Both horses must start for action.
2121 Denis of Cork -110
2122 El Gato Malo -110

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Truck vs Adriano Both horses must start for action.
2123 Big Truck -110
2124 Adriano -110

"+150" means you risk 100 to win 150.
"-180" means you risk 180 to win 100.

--Dunbar

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

TheGreek.com has Derby matchups posted. I don't remember matchups being offered this early. Bets only count if both horses start:

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown and Pyro vs The Field Both horses must start for action.
2107 Big Brown and Pyro +150
2108 The Field -180

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown vs Pyro Both horses must start for action.
2109 Big Brown +100
2110 Pyro -125

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Colonel John vs Tale of Ekati Both horses must start for action.
2111 Colonel John -160
2112 Tale of Ekati +130

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown vs Colonel John Both horses must start for action.
2113 Big Brown -165
2114 Colonel John +135

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Smooth Air vs War Pass Both horses must start for action.
2115 Smooth Air +110
2116 War Pass -140

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Court Vision vs Visionaire Both horses must start for action.
2117 Court Vision -110
2118 Visionaire -110

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Z Fortune vs Z Humor Both horses must start for action.
2119 Z Fortune -110
2120 Z Humor -110

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Denis of Cork vs El Gato Malo Both horses must start for action.
2121 Denis of Cork -110
2122 El Gato Malo -110

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Truck vs Adriano Both horses must start for action.
2123 Big Truck -110
2124 Adriano -110

"+150" means you risk 100 to win 150.
"-180" means you risk 180 to win 100.

--Dunbar

the fact that court vision is the same odds head to head as Visionaire, tells me that the odd's makers still like court vision.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

the fact that court vision is the same odds head to head as Visionaire, tells me that the odd's makers still like court vision.

Or that they saw that they were both 19-1 in the future wager, which I think is a huge underlay on Court Vision and a minor underlay on Visionaire, considering how Texas Wildcatter ran on Saturday.

[cakes44]

I love 2115.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by cakes44

I love 2115.

To me, that looks like a trap. I am glad I don't do offshore anymore

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Or that they saw that they were both 19-1 in the future wager, which I think is a huge underlay on Court Vision and a minor underlay on Visionaire, considering how Texas Wildcatter ran on Saturday.

can you pm, and please tell me why the hate for court vision, help me understand, because i dont get it.

3rd off the layoff
because of his 2 clunk up thirds, he goes from a top 3 derby horse on everyones list, 2 a giant price, ensuring value
mott
gomez
third off the layoff
been in battles
won the remsen the right way, even though it was slow, he was in hand late
won at churchill
third off the layoff

i dont know, i dont see why me liking him is so crazy....

[hockey2315]

He is SLOOOOWWWWWWW.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

can you pm, and please tell me why the hate for court vision, help me understand, because i dont get it.

3rd off the layoff
because of his 2 clunk up thirds, he goes from a top 3 derby horse on everyones list, 2 a giant price, ensuring value
mott
gomez
third off the layoff
been in battles
won the remsen the right way, even though it was slow, he was in hand late
won at churchill
third off the layoff

i dont know, i dont see why me liking him is so crazy....

I told you a thousand times in the other thread. If he were any kind of horse, he would've won on Saturday. He's a dead closer that couldn't win a race in which the last three furlongs were run in :40.85. What else do I have to say?

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

can you pm, and please tell me why the hate for court vision, help me understand, because i dont get it.

3rd off the layoff
because of his 2 clunk up thirds, he goes from a top 3 derby horse on everyones list, 2 a giant price, ensuring value
mott
gomez
third off the layoff
been in battles
won the remsen the right way, even though it was slow, he was in hand late
won at churchill
third off the layoff

i dont know, i dont see why me liking him is so crazy....

Court Vision is a plodder. He drops to the back of the field because he is so slow and passes anybody who gets tired. His Iroquois victory was probably the best he has ever run and he hasn't improved a step since then.

Look at the Remsen, a small 6 horse field where he hugged the rail the entire trip and bumped Big Truck out of contention to win an incredibly slow race. A very overrated performance.

Everything broke his way in the FOY and he still finished a slow 3rd. He had an inside post which is gold at Gulfstream, hugged the rail all the way around and clunked it up for 3rd. Another overrated performance. Look who finished behind him and tell me if any of those are Derby contenders.

Finally his Wood performance where again he had everything his way. His connections entered a rabbit to cook War Pass and succeeded in doing so and he still finished behind him. Look who finished behind Court Vision and again tell me who is a Derby contender. It may have looked like he finished well but that was only compared to the staggering drunks who finished that race in 41 seconds.

He is hopeless as a Derby contender and I will personally book whatever you want to put on him.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

4/12/2008 3:00 PM Big Brown and Pyro vs The Field Both horses must start for action.
2107 Big Brown and Pyro +150
2108 The Field -180

how does this work? Is it Brown and Pyro must run 1,2?
Is "The Field" all the others or all the others not on derby futures?

thanks

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

how does this work? Is it Brown and Pyro must run 1,2?
Is "The Field" all the others or all the others not on derby futures?

thanks

I'm pretty sure it's if either Big Brown or Pyro wins, because 3/2 on a Big Brown/Pyro exacta box doesn't exactly sound like a bet people would be flocking to make.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

can you pm, and please tell me why the hate for court vision, help me understand, because i dont get it.

3rd off the layoff
because of his 2 clunk up thirds, he goes from a top 3 derby horse on everyones list, 2 a giant price, ensuring value
mott
gomez
third off the layoff
been in battles
won the remsen the right way, even though it was slow, he was in hand late
won at churchill
third off the layoff

i dont know, i dont see why me liking him is so crazy....

it's not hate, and you shouldn't take it personally if no one else sees what you do in the horse. if you like him, bet him. no big deal. but i doubt you'll talk anyone else into thinking court vision has a shot in the derby.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I'm pretty sure it's if either Big Brown or Pyro wins, because 3/2 on a Big Brown/Pyro exacta box doesn't exactly sound like a bet people would be flocking to make.

makes sense

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not hate, and you shouldn't take it personally if no one else sees what you do in the horse. if you like him, bet him. no big deal. but i doubt you'll talk anyone else into thinking court vision has a shot in the derby.

i know, and i am going to bet him, but really does he look nearly as impossible as giacomo did ?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

how does this work? Is it Brown and Pyro must run 1,2?
Is "The Field" all the others or all the others not on derby futures?

thanks

Ateam is correct. In the first matchup, if either Big Brown or Pyro wins, then the side betting "Big Brown and Pyro" would win the bet. If any other horse wins, then the side betting "Field" would win the bet.


--Dunbar

[JJP]

Originally Posted by jcs11204

i know, and i am going to bet him, but really does he look nearly as impossible as giacomo did ?

Yes. Giacomo looked better than Court Vision does. In Giacomo's Santa Anita Derby, speed ran 1-2-3 around the track and he basically was the only one who made up any ground. Court Vision had the perfect pace scenario in the Wood and still couldn't get the job done. I thought he'd run a big race last Saturday and not firing under optimal circumstances is a huge negative. I guess at a big enough price I could make a case for him running 3rd or 4th if we get the usual ginormous pace but even that may be a stretch. Why not point the horse for other 3YO races like the Ohio Derby?

[Thunder Gulch]

I've been a Court Vision fan and keep making excuses for him, but I'm starting to get in line with those who think he's just too slow to win. I kept telling myself that he was going to run an Invisible Ink type of race that got him a share. However, he should have had things all his way with the pace on Saturday. That said, I'd still give him a chance to clunk up past tired horses for 3rd or 4th because he does run late and he has won at Churchill, not to mention Bill Mott.

[Thunder Gulch]

Interesting that the future pool has BigBrown at 5/2 and Pyro at 5/1, while a sharp bookmaker has Pyro as a -125 favorite in the matchup.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

Interesting that the future pool has BigBrown at 5/2 and Pyro at 5/1, while a sharp bookmaker has Pyro as a -125 favorite in the matchup.

You don't have to win the race to win the matchup. The thinking is that if Big Brown starts to back up, he may back up in a hurry, whereas Pyro will be doing his best running late.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by JJP

You don't have to win the race to win the matchup. The thinking is that if Big Brown starts to back up, he may back up in a hurry, whereas Pyro will be doing his best running late.

That's what happens in pricing some matchups and it's an important point to remember. But in this case, TheGreek DOES like Pyro's chances to win better than Big Brown's. They are offering 4.65 to 1 on Big Brown but just 4.05 to 1 on Pyro.

--Dunbar