Very Mixed Feelings

[MaTH716]

I have to admit that I have always wanted to see a triple crown winner. I was too young to remember the trio that pulled it off in the 70's. I have watched all the film and have bought all kinds of TC photos, pins, etc. But I couldn't wait for the day, that I could see it all happen. Now it would be even better that I would be able to enjoy it with my son. The last couple of times, I was really into it. Even with horses that I really didn't like or I didn't think had a shot going into the Belmont (War Emblem, Smarty Jones), I was rooting for them to do the trick. After every derby you think, hope that that this is the one (except the year of Giacomo). But for some reason, I just can't get excited about Big Brown winning the Triple Crown. I know he still has 2 races in front of him and I am not crowning him yet. But I just can't put my finger on why I am so uninspired. The horse ran great and has done nothing wrong, 4 wide from the 20 and he won for fun. Maybe because he is just a very good horse running against a bunch of slow 3 year olds? I expect the Preakness to be even worse. Big Brown running against a bunch of locals. It is not the ownership issue, hell I know a guy that has a piece of him. Is anyone else expirencing the same feeling as me? Who knows, maybe I will catch the fever in 2 weeks. But as of now the only thing I am looking foward to is taking my boys to Monmouth park in a couple of weeks and Saratoga down the road.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I have to admit that I have always wanted to see a triple crown winner. I was too young to remember the trio that pulled it off in the 70's. I have watched all the film and have bought all kinds of TC photos, pins, etc. But I couldn't wait for the day, that I could see it all happen. Now it would be even better that I would be able to enjoy it with my son. The last couple of times, I was really into it. Even with horses that I really didn't like or I didn't think had a shot going into the Belmont (War Emblem, Smarty Jones), I was rooting for them to do the trick. After every derby you think, hope that that this is the one (except the year of Giacomo). But for some reason, I just can't get excited about Big Brown winning the Triple Crown. I know he still has 2 races in front of him and I am not crowning him yet. But I just can't put my finger on why I am so uninspired. The horse ran great and has done nothing wrong, 4 wide from the 20 and he won for fun. Maybe because he is just a very good horse running against a bunch of slow 3 year olds? I expect the Preakness to be even worse. Big Brown running against a bunch of locals. It is not the ownership issue, hell I know a guy that has a piece of him. Is anyone else expirencing the same feeling as me? Who knows, maybe I will catch the fever in 2 weeks. But as of now the only thing I am looking foward to is taking my boys to Monmouth park in a couple of weeks and Saratoga down the road.

To me, the above is the sticking point. I mean, if it wasn't for BB this year, and the EB's tragedy muddles this, but who would be running in The Preakness if she had won and BB wasn't around? Where is there any rivalry forming?

I'm rooting for him.

A story that intrigues me is the resurrection of Desormeaux's career. I've always thought he's the most talented rider in the jockey colony and he's going to prove it in the upcoming years.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I'm rooting for him.

A story that intrigues me is the resurrection of Desormeaux's career. I've always thought he's the most talented rider in the jockey colony and he's going to prove it in the upcoming years.

This is a good point coach. When he came east in 2006 it was a big move for him and his family. His career was in a lull. Many trainers were turning their backs on him for various reasons, one of which was that he was a bit of a headcase and not following instructions

Early in the 2006 Spa meet I had a chance to chat with him. He was very friendly, a little frustrated and seemed very humbled. He told me to "stick with him", because he felt he was slowly going to be getting live mounts. Sure enough as the season went on his business picked up and he had some very good winners. One year later he finished second. It's been a long road back for him and I hope he and Big Brown win the Triple crown.

[HaloWishingwell]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think the main and probably only reason that Big Brown is unexciting is his human connections. Think about it, the last few years we've had very intriguing and easy to like human connections. You'd be hard pressed to find people who have a bad word to say about Nafzger, Matz or John Sheriffs. Not exactly the same thing with Dutrow.

In terms of the owners, in recent memory we had the Sackatoga guys, The Chapmans, The Moss's and Jim Tafel. All likeable and thought provoking stories. Again, the same really can't be said for the IEAH guys, especially in light of the A One Rocket stuff.

The horse is very talented, there is no doubt. Unfortunately for him, the people who own and train him aren't well liked and in turn, a very good horse isn't rousing up the fans like it should. If someone like Bennie Stutts was training Big Brown he would be America's darling this morning. It's too bad.

I agree with you and you can throw in that this crop stinks and the preps were awful. With the exception of BIG BROWN and COLONEL JOHN,look at the Derby odds of the winners of the major preps.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think the main and probably only reason that Big Brown is unexciting is his human connections. Think about it, the last few years we've had very intriguing and easy to like human connections. You'd be hard pressed to find people who have a bad word to say about Nafzger, Matz or John Sheriffs. Not exactly the same thing with Dutrow.

In terms of the owners, in recent memory we had the Sackatoga guys, The Chapmans, The Moss's and Jim Tafel. All likeable and thought provoking stories. Again, the same really can't be said for the IEAH guys, especially in light of the A One Rocket stuff.

The horse is very talented, there is no doubt. Unfortunately for him, the people who own and train him aren't well liked and in turn, a very good horse isn't rousing up the fans like it should. If someone like Bennie Stutts was training Big Brown he would be America's darling this morning. It's too bad.

I like Benny as much as anyone. Yet, oddly, I still laughed.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think the main and probably only reason that Big Brown is unexciting is his human connections. Think about it, the last few years we've had very intriguing and easy to like human connections. You'd be hard pressed to find people who have a bad word to say about Nafzger, Matz or John Sheriffs. Not exactly the same thing with Dutrow.

In terms of the owners, in recent memory we had the Sackatoga guys, The Chapmans, The Moss's and Jim Tafel. All likeable and thought provoking stories. Again, the same really can't be said for the IEAH guys, especially in light of the A One Rocket stuff.

The horse is very talented, there is no doubt. Unfortunately for him, the people who own and train him aren't well liked and in turn, a very good horse isn't rousing up the fans like it should. If someone like Bennie Stutts was training Big Brown he would be America's darling this morning. It's too bad.

I don't know. Curlin has won me over and I hate his connections far more than I hate the connections of Big Brown. I really think it is the lack of competition coupled with the breakdown of the second place finisher in the Derby that makes it feel like it would be a cheap Triple Crown and after 30 years I don't want to see a cheap Triple Crown unless the horse would actually stick around to run at four like Seattle Slew which there is no way in hell that would happen with this horse.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think it's safe to say if we ever have another triple crown winner, unless he's a gelding, there is a zero % chance they run at 4. There is just no way it will happen. And people have warmed up to Curlin a bit now. Maybe you more than others, but he's hardly a fan favorite.

It is extremely doubtful we'd ever see one run at 4 although there is at least a slight chance with certain owners. No chance in this case though.

[MaTH716]

I think that everyone brings up very valid points. I do think the competion or lack there of (so far) is an issue. Right now, he looks much the best of a shallow 3 year old pool. The fact that not one of the other derby horses are going to Pimlico speaks volumes. Maybe the owners are a little tough to root for too. Do they look at racing just for the bottom line and a way to make lots of money, or do they have that love/passion for the sport that so many of us here do? I have my own personal hangups about Dutrow. But all of them are unfair and based on hearsay. I do admit though watching the way that horse ran, 4-wide the whole way makes me think.... They were a very confident group going into the race with the 20 post. Kent D. kept him out of trouble and gave him a clean ride. I have no qualms about him. He did looked cool as a cucumber coming out of the jocks room on the way to the paddock before the race. Maybe he knows the horse is a monster. As far as horses running after if they should win the TC. Forget about 4, I don't even think you would see them make the Travers/Haskell. I think they would end up going right to the barn. That doesn't bother me as much, because these days (unfortunatley) it's just part of the game.

[NoLuvForPletch]

For me it's the human connections. It's hard to root for Dutrow. Period! In regards to the owners, the problem I have is with how they bought their way into the horse. If it were the sheiks, people would be batshit over it. I just feel differently about a situation like this where these guys are throwing money around after a horse has proven himself on the racetrack than I do for a homebred or an auction purchase. Not alot of effort goes into seeing BB air at Saratoga and then going to buy him.

Remember, these are the same geniuses that bought the mighty Lawrence the Roman last year trying to buy a Derby horse (Laugh). I'll still never understand how they got their money back after that brilliant move.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I think that everyone brings up very valid points. I do think the competion or lack there of (so far) is an issue. Right now, he looks much the best of a shallow 3 year old pool. The fact that not one of the other derby horses are going to Pimlico speaks volumes. Maybe the owners are a little tough to root for too. Do they look at racing just for the bottom line and a way to make lots of money, or do they have that love/passion for the sport that so many of us here do? I have my own personal hangups about Dutrow. But all of them are unfair and based on hearsay. I do admit though watching the way that horse ran, 4-wide the whole way makes me think.... They were a very confident group going into the race with the 20 post. Kent D. kept him out of trouble and gave him a clean ride. I have no qualms about him. He did looked cool as a cucumber coming out of the jocks room on the way to the paddock before the race. Maybe he knows the horse is a monster. As far as horses running after if they should win the TC. Forget about 4, I don't even think you would see them make the Travers/Haskell. I think they would end up going right to the barn. That doesn't bother me as much, because these days (unfortunatley) it's just part of the game.

I gotta say that imho "that love/passion for the sport" are somewhat different things for horseplayers vs owners....I don't begrudge the owners who want to make a score....hell as a horseplayer I know I love it when I make one.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Instead of the usual BBB hit and run that you are doing now, please, enlighten me, what is so funny?

And it's been a few days, so while I have you here, could you explain the horsemen's postion in regards to the signal dispute? You said you were behind them and shockingly, or maybe not, never got around to answer why.

I'm so sorry for the delay. I could at least have offered you up a smiley face or an OOOOOOO.

Bennie Stutts is a decent trainer but it is not within the realm of remote possibility that he's be training a syndicate purchased horse. And with the issues Brown has, it is far more likely than not that anyone other than a top tier trainer has Brown both ready and peaked for the race.

Follow?

On the horsemen/CDI/ADW dispute, Churchill has been been in no hurry to get a deal done for months now. The horsemen had only one chip to play and they played it instead of caving in. I respect that.

Of course, you know the biggest issue in Florida isn't the ADW deal but rather slots. CDI's stalling has been based, in great measure, on speculation over a reduced tax structure for pari-mutuel slots. Well, guess what.... the legislative session closed Friday and it didn't get done. CDI f'ed it up. Or, more kindly, couldn't get the deal done. And guess what, after months of signaling that Calder would settle on a slots rev split with horsemen similar to what is in place at Gulfstream, CDI reneged and said they can't do a slots revenue sharing deal for Calder until, after it determines “where and how to put in slot machines” at Calder. Interesting or not, Ken Dunn issued that statement the day before he got canned. Perhaps the slots will go in Dunn's empty office.

I suppose CDI is within their rights to float certain intentions and then change course. In the end, it's a collectively bargained dispute. There's no black or white but I side with the horsemen.

I'm sure you know Churchill's stock was down 7% on Friday and another 5%+ today. That might lend you some clue as to how the rest of the world views Churchill's acumen.

Does this help?

What side of the fence do you land on?

Am I back on your holiday card list?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

4 days for this? What press release did you cut and paste this from?

As for the Stutts comparison, obviously it went over your head. Try and follow, I'll go slow. I am well aware of Stutts place in the game. My point was, if Big Brown was trained by a horsemen like Stutts, people would be discussing Big Brown more. As opposed to caring about the people that own and train him.

Follow?

You are indeed a special kind of slow. No press releases. I follow the company and the story is in the freaking newspapers here. You do not need to be jealous of the fact that I actually understand what is going on here, just as you don't have to feel poorly about thinking first time MCL starters are "sometimes good value" on the Aqueduct Inner.

Until 4 weeks ago, you wouldn't have known Bennie Stutts from Benny the Bull, much less be "well aware of his place in the game."

AS for your "if Big Brown was trained by ... Bennie Stutts," comment, this does indeed show your are truly inept at this. Horses like Brown that win the Derby in their 4th start are not trained by the Bennie Stutts of the world.

And as for people not caring about the horse because of the connections, you're wrong again. People don't care about the horse because the runner-up died on the track.

Do you EVER offer up anything other than OOOOOOOs and negative comments about what other people have to say?

Once, just ONCE, you should try putting out something positive. Pick a race. Analyze it. Put it out for us to see. But you won't because you might be wrong.

I don't expect you to answer any of my questions. You will not. That is not your style.

But I do hope you'll get back to me on the Holiday card list thing.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

There are numerous people here that I have put on winning horses. Granted, they aren't the $5 specials like you give out, but it happens. In fact, just a few months ago, I remember you praising me for giving out a winner. My how the times have changed.

You don't like what I have to say, ignore it. it's pretty easy to, there's a function on here and everything. I did find this to be quite amusing, "Do you EVER offer up anything other than OOOOOOOs and negative comments about what other people have to say?"

Just curious, isn't that what you do? Go take a look at your posts, that's your style. you're the new BBB, only he actually bets. What exactly is your obsession with me?


You'll never get the Stutts stuff. You're too angry and closed minded about anything I have to say to comprehend it. Sadly, it's pretty simple. Let me know when your 4 month long hard on finally goes away. You used to be an alright poster, now your jealousy and envy has consumed you. It's unfortunate, but it happens.

I laughed. Hard.


"Numerous people." Right. The next race you put out here will be the first.

You never thanked me for helping you understand the Aqueduct Inner better.

I laughed.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think the main and probably only reason that Big Brown is unexciting is his human connections. Think about it, the last few years we've had very intriguing and easy to like human connections. You'd be hard pressed to find people who have a bad word to say about Nafzger, Matz or John Sheriffs. Not exactly the same thing with Dutrow.

In terms of the owners, in recent memory we had the Sackatoga guys, The Chapmans, The Moss's and Jim Tafel. All likeable and thought provoking stories. Again, the same really can't be said for the IEAH guys, especially in light of the A One Rocket stuff.

The horse is very talented, there is no doubt. Unfortunately for him, the people who own and train him aren't well liked and in turn, a very good horse isn't rousing up the fans like it should. If someone like Bennie Stutts was training Big Brown he would be America's darling this morning. It's too bad.

I think you nailed it

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

And as for people not caring about the horse because of the connections, you're wrong again. People don't care about the horse because the runner-up died on the track.

Hate to get in the middle of you two ladies' scuffle, but this is incorrect. Even if Eight Belles were alive and kickin', no one would care much about Big Brown. Rooting for Dutrow is about as fun as rooting for Rex Tillerson.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Hate to get in the middle of you two ladies' scuffle, but this is incorrect. Even if Eight Belles were alive and kickin', no one would care much about Big Brown. Rooting for Dutrow is about as fun as rooting for Rex Tillerson.

I dont know.. I think people would be more excited about the race and BBrown's awesome performance if the race had not been marred by Tragedy.

I know I would be. I guess I'm just rooting for big brown because he's a talented horse and I'm not forming my opinion of the horse based around his trainer. The only negative opinions of horses that I had were the Thoroughbred Corp's horses cause I hate the prince. And even that I had to get over a little cause I loved Point Given (granted i didnt have an opinion on the prince with PG was running).

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I dont know.. I think people would be more excited about the race and BBrown's awesome performance if the race had not been marred by Tragedy.

I know I would be. I guess I'm just rooting for big brown because he's a talented horse and I'm not forming my opinion of the horse based around his trainer. The only negative opinions of horses that I had were the Thoroughbred Corp's horses cause I hate the prince. And even that I had to get over a little cause I loved Point Given (granted i didnt have an opinion on the prince with PG was running).

Surely there would be more celebration of the PERFORMANCE had Eight Belles not gone down, but I don't think there would be any more enthusiasm for THE HORSE. Eight Belles living or dying doesn't have any effect on the fact that Big Brown has unlikeable connections. As a fan, I'd love to see a Triple Crown winner, but there's part of me that wants to see him get beaten because I'm not a Dutrow fan. If Big Brown had just about any other trainer (save for the other juicers), I'd be full bore rooting for him to win the Crown.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I dont know.. I think people would be more excited about the race and BBrown's awesome performance if the race had not been marred by Tragedy.

I know I would be. I guess I'm just rooting for big brown because he's a talented horse and I'm not forming my opinion of the horse based around his trainer. The only negative opinions of horses that I had were the Thoroughbred Corp's horses cause I hate the prince. And even that I had to get over a little cause I loved Point Given (granted i didnt have an opinion on the prince with PG was running).

no. i was completely disgusted that big brown won. then the news came of the filly, and that just added to my already incredibly low feelings.

i can't remember every rooting against a horse as much as i did this one. of course it helped my perspective when someone else actually said they wanted him to be injured (but not bad ) as i would not wish harm to the horse...but, you have a horse with only four starts, with a scumbag trainer and scumbag owners.
not the horses fault, but certainly not a horse you can get behind.

Originally Posted by Danzig

no. i was completely disgusted that big brown won. then the news came of the filly, and that just added to my already incredibly low feelings.

i can't remember every rooting against a horse as much as i did this one. of course it helped my perspective when someone else actually said they wanted him to be injured (but not bad ) as i would not wish harm to the horse...but, you have a horse with only four starts, with a scumbag trainer and scumbag owners.
not the horses fault, but certainly not a horse you can get behind.

It's not a good idea to get behind any horse...unless your name is sumitas and the horse is Golden...err nvmd.