Mark Jackson and Van Gundy...

It is an excrutiating lesson to keep listening.
But now I know why Mark Jackson is not
an NBA coach:

Mark Jackson tried to defend Allen Iverson dribbling
all over the court (making it difficult for the rest of the offense)
by saying Nash does exactly the same thing and it works for Nash.

OMG.

Comparing Nash opening up numerous lanes for other players
to Iverson randomly looking for a jumper...

Mark Jackson has got to be kidding and joking or he is
a complete idiot that should never be allowed near
an NBA team again.

Honest to God... Cannon, if you are anywhere around
you got to inform your cousin about this one.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It is an excrutiating lesson to keep listening.
But now I know why Mark Jackson is not
an NBA coach:

Mark Jackson tried to defend Allen Iverson dribbling
all over the court (making it difficult for the rest of the offense)
by saying Nash does exactly the same thing and it works for Nash.

OMG.

Comparing Nash opening up numerous lanes for other players
to Iverson randomly looking for a jumper...

Mark Jackson has got to be kidding and joking or he is
a complete idiot that should never be allowed near
an NBA team again.

Honest to God... Cannon, if you are anywhere around
you got to inform your cousin about this one.

If he had said that Nash has been vastly overrated I would probably agree. The funny thing is that both players are pretty much one way players though with different skill sets. I think he was trying to point out that AI and Nash are undersized players that dribble a lot. He isn't that far off.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If he had said that Nash has been vastly overrated I would probably agree. The funny thing is that both players are pretty much one way players though with different skill sets. I think he was trying to point out that AI and Nash are undersized players that dribble a lot. He isn't that far off.

omg...

the only thing they have in common is neither play defense.
One cant, and one wont.

He was trying to point out that Iverson opens up the offense for other players as well as Nash does. And that... is absolutely ridiculous.
Jackson may have just been trying to disagree with Van Gundy's assertion
that Iverson dribbles around and does not use screens properly,
no one on his team really knows what to do except watch.

One is a point the other is a 2. One sees the whole floor, the other sees
the rim. One is/was a fantastic athlete that does not understand the team game. The other is a mediocre athlete with a great feel for the team game. Have you every seen Iverson actually use his positioning to make a screen obvious and easy to set ? I see him just run past screens set for him. He completely confuses the majority of his team on offense.
So the skill sets are very different.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

omg...

the only thing they have in common is neither play defense.
One cant, and one wont.

He was trying to point out that Iverson opens up the offense for other players as well as Nash does. And that... is absolutely ridiculous.
Jackson may have just been trying to disagree with Van Gundy's assertion
that Iverson dribbles around and does not use screens properly,
no one on his team really knows what to do except watch.

One is a point the other is a 2. One sees the whole floor, the other sees
the rim. One is/was a fantastic athlete that does not understand the team game. The other is a mediocre athlete with a great feel for the team game.
So the skill sets are very different.

Allen Iverson is NEVER given any credit for what he is and does, just gets knocked for what he isn't. He is a 5' 10" 170 guy who can score 30 a game in the NBA. Name one other player in history that is like him? Nash was always overrated simply because he was white. If Iverson had played on the Suns they would have had the same playoff results as they have had with Nash and he probably would have led the league in scoring every year. He may not have any rings but he carried a team on his back to the NBA finals which is far more than Nash has ever accomplished in that respect. For a guy who is universally loved he has a dismal playoff record and has never had an allstar season when not coached by D'Antoni who has somehow made Chris Duhon into a pretty respectable NBA point guard. Nash is and never has been near the player that Chris Paul now is or Jason Kidd was yet those guys have never and probably will never win an MVP. I am not saying that Nash isnt a very good player but he gets far more respect and is thought a better player than Iverson when that absolutely is not true.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Allen Iverson is NEVER given any credit for what he is and does, just gets knocked for what he isn't. He is a 5' 10" 170 guy who can score 30 a game in the NBA. Name one other player in history that is like him? Nash was always overrated simply because he was white. If Iverson had played on the Suns they would have had the same playoff results as they have had with Nash and he probably would have led the league in scoring every year. He may not have any rings but he carried a team on his back to the NBA finals which is far more than Nash has ever accomplished in that respect. For a guy who is universally loved he has a dismal playoff record and has never had an allstar season when not coached by D'Antoni who has somehow made Chris Duhon into a pretty respectable NBA point guard. Nash is and never has been near the player that Chris Paul now is or Jason Kidd was yet those guys have never and probably will never win an MVP. I am not saying that Nash isnt a very good player but he gets far more respect and is thought a better player than Iverson when that absolutely is not true.

Iverson is one of the most competitive and the strongest player I have ever
seen for his size. LIke I said, his athleticism is crazy unique. He works his butt off every game, on offense.

Nash would have been in a championship and probably won a championship
if he did not have to play against the Spurs almost every playoff. Put the Suns in the East Iverson played in, and the Suns would be there. THE SUNS, not just Nash.

What a better player means hmmm... one on one ability, Iverson. Consistency over many years at scoring and playing the same game, Iverson. Making players on his team better, Nash. Just like Billups is doing for Denver. Agree with Jason Kidd.
But not Chris Paul. Yet... Chris Paul keeping up the same game he plays for many years, I will take him over any mentioned barring Magic Johnson.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Iverson is one of the most competitive and the strongest player I have ever
seen for his size. LIke I said, his athleticism is crazy unique. He works his butt off every game, on offense.

Nash would have been in a championship and probably won a championship
if he did not have to play against the Spurs almost every playoff. Put the Suns in the East Iverson played in, and the Suns would be there. THE SUNS, not just Nash.

What a better player means hmmm... one on one ability, Iverson. Consistency over many years at scoring and playing the same game, Iverson. Making players on his team better, Nash. Just like Billups is doing for Denver. Agree with Jason Kidd.
But not Chris Paul. Yet... Chris Paul keeping up the same game he plays for many years, I will take him over any mentioned barring Magic Johnson.

That East /West thing rings hollow, it isn't as though they havent had talent surrounding Nash.

I just have always been amazed how a wave of consenus echos through sports when talking about things like MVP and such. That wave and a few stupid stats have made Nash into a legend and he hardly deserves that company. I just think that if he was black that Nash would be thought of along the lines of a Billups (who is a good player but no one is putting him on any alltime teams). He is a guy who was in the right place at the right time in the perfect system with the right parts. Having mobile big men like Marion, Stoudamire and even Diaw has helped him immensely and he can hit an open jumper. But I dont know that he is really a better point guard than Maurice Cheeks.

Chris Paul is already a better player than Nash at Nash's peak.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That East /West thing rings hollow, it isn't as though they havent had talent surrounding Nash.

I just have always been amazed how a wave of consenus echos through sports when talking about things like MVP and such. That wave and a few stupid stats have made Nash into a legend and he hardly deserves that company. I just think that if he was black that Nash would be thought of along the lines of a Billups (who is a good player but no one is putting him on any alltime teams). He is a guy who was in the right place at the right time in the perfect system with the right parts. Having mobile big men like Marion, Stoudamire and even Diaw has helped him immensely and he can hit an open jumper. But I dont know that he is really a better point guard than Maurice Cheeks.

Chris Paul is already a better player than Nash at Nash's peak.

I think it is more the wow factor than being white.
Nash made some incredible passes and clutch plays. Really, when you
look at the playoff games they lost, Nash was one of the few
that did not choke on those Phoenix teams(when not hurt). Nash is clearly way beyond his peak imo... so its kinda easy to diss him now.

John Stockton's assists were as numerous as Nash, they just
were not as flashy. I also think Nash snuck in at the right times for MVP.

You like like Marion much more than I ever did. He put up great numbers, but in the playoffs, it was a pleasure to see him on the floor against the Spurs. Marion is a big time choke imo.

I also think the black/white thing goes in the other direction also.
Heck, I know it does. Everyone forgets how great Jack Sikma was

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I think it is more the wow factor than being white.
Nash made some incredible passes and clutch plays. Really, when you
look at the playoff games they lost, Nash was one of the few
that did not choke on those Phoenix teams(when not hurt). Nash is clearly way beyond his peak imo... so its kinda easy to diss him now.

John Stockton's assists were as numerous as Nash, they just
were not as flashy. I also think Nash snuck in at the right times for MVP.

You like like Marion much more than I ever did. He put up great numbers, but in the playoffs, it was a pleasure to see him on the floor against the Spurs. Marion is a big time choke imo.

I also think the black/white thing goes in the other direction also.
Heck, I know it does. Everyone forgets how great Jack Sikma was

But what happened to him making everyone better? he stopped in the playoffs? Marions numbers were something that NASH got credit for but Marion got credit for the choking. I have always been astonished that Nash has achieved his status. He got this huge bump from "intangibles" (which are usually bullshit) because his numbers in the MVP seasons (15 and 18 points a game and 11 assists) are neither exceptional nor are they nearly as impactful as they should have been due to the D'antoni offense they came in. He got this nebulous credit for phoenix being a good regular season team yet seemed to escape unscathed when they invariably missed the finals once again. So his intangibles didnt work in the post season? He is a smart player who gets a lot out of his ability. He is quick and doesnt make a lot of bad plays. He is a good shooter and excellent passer. He is a really good player who should be a borderline Hall of Famer in a few years. Yet I heard some moron say he should be on the 2nd team of the Alltime NBA team. That is like putting Big Brown in the top 10 of alltime horses including Mr. Ed.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But what happened to him making everyone better? he stopped in the playoffs? Marions numbers were something that NASH got credit for but Marion got credit for the choking. Yet I heard some moron say he should be on the 2nd team of the Alltime NBA team. That is like putting Big Brown in the top 10 of alltime horses including Mr. Ed.

In the playoffs Marion choked. Nash had as good as if not better numbers in the playoffs. As I said before the major problem Phoenix had in the playoffs was the Spurs. We had a great deal of trouble controlling Nash. Marion flat out missed shots in the playoffs that he made in the regular season.

On the other hand Nash's defense was so bad he made Tony Parker
look much better than he is. And Parker is good. So Parker could do
what he pleased in the playoffs. As I have stated before, I cant stand
PG's that cannot play D. So Nash is no world-beater for me. But to state (like Jacksond did) that Iverson moves the ball around like Nash on offense is offensively stupid. Nash is cohesive. Iverson... is a great scorer, but hardly a quarter back for an offense.

[GPK]

Chuck, you hit the nail on the head. Nash was nothing but a product of Dantoni's system, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by GPK

Chuck, you hit the nail on the head. Nash was nothing but a product of Dantoni's system, plain and simple.

Nothing but a product...
Do you remember Nash on Dallas?
When he was not injured, 2001-03?
He had some of his best scoring numbers with Dallas.

And he played/plays with a bunch of babies on Phoenix.
Amare (I care about #'s), Marion (I care about #'s).
Nash was the only guy on that team that could keep
his composure in the playoffs. The ONLY guy.
Even D'Antoni was a big crybaby that could not
keep his guys sitting on the bench.

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That East /West thing rings hollow, it isn't as though they havent had talent surrounding Nash.

I just have always been amazed how a wave of consenus echos through sports when talking about things like MVP and such. That wave and a few stupid stats have made Nash into a legend and he hardly deserves that company. I just think that if he was black that Nash would be thought of along the lines of a Billups (who is a good player but no one is putting him on any alltime teams). He is a guy who was in the right place at the right time in the perfect system with the right parts. Having mobile big men like Marion, Stoudamire and even Diaw has helped him immensely and he can hit an open jumper. But I dont know that he is really a better point guard than Maurice Cheeks.

Chris Paul is already a better player than Nash at Nash's peak.

......how he has more m.v.p hardware than kobe is laughable......

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

......how he has more m.v.p hardware than kobe is laughable......

And as many as Shaq and Kobe combined.

Cannon, I think you are about 200% spot on in this one. Nash is a very good player but nowhere near the level that he has been put on. I can think of many point guards over the years that I would have taken over him, Mark Jackson being one of them.

It's funny reading how Iverson doesn't understand the team game and how he doesn't open up the floor for his teammates. I think he absolutely does. The thing is that he doesn't always pass to them when they are open. Iverson has an uncanny ability to score the basketball, one that has not been matched by many players in the history of the game. So often, his tough shot is a better option that passing out to a wide open Aaron McKie or Eric Snow. You watch Iverson play on all-star teams or in the Olympics where he doesn't have to score as much and you see that he can play very well with others. Of course he's still a scorer at heart but he can do it. People make too much of this whole thing about making your teammates better. They do it too much in Nash's favor just like they criticize Kobe and Iverson too much. Funny how Nash makes his teammates so much better yet has never gone to the finals with better teammates while Kobe and Iverson both went there with lesser ones. Helping your team win is far more important than making your teammates better and sometimes, the best way to help them win is by going for 50 or 60.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

And as many as Shaq and Kobe combined.

Cannon, I think you are about 200% spot on in this one. Nash is a very good player but nowhere near the level that he has been put on. I can think of many point guards over the years that I would have taken over him, Mark Jackson being one of them.

It's funny reading how Iverson doesn't understand the team game and how he doesn't open up the floor for his teammates. I think he absolutely does. The thing is that he doesn't always pass to them when they are open. Iverson has an uncanny ability to score the basketball, one that has not been matched by many players in the history of the game. So often, his tough shot is a better option that passing out to a wide open Aaron McKie or Eric Snow. You watch Iverson play on all-star teams or in the Olympics where he doesn't have to score as much and you see that he can play very well with others. Of course he's still a scorer at heart but he can do it. People make too much of this whole thing about making your teammates better. They do it too much in Nash's favor just like they criticize Kobe and Iverson too much. Funny how Nash makes his teammates so much better yet has never gone to the finals with better teammates while Kobe and Iverson both went there with lesser ones. Helping your team win is far more important than making your teammates better and sometimes, the best way to help them win is by going for 50 or 60.

No they dont say it enough.
Tim Duncan does the same thing for the Spurs
at Center/PF. Do you really think Tony Parker
would have an open lane to the rim and shoot over
50% going on the 3rd season in a row without Duncan?
There are so many more examples.

Dont put these guys in the same sentence.
Kobe can and will play defense.

Why was Iverson absent from the latest Olympic team?
The one that actually got the Gold. Jason KIdd made that team.
And KIdd cant even get close to moving like he used to.

Lets hear exactly what Iverson has done for the PIstons...
Besides his best to bring them down to a .500 team.

Originally Posted by alysheba4

......how he has more m.v.p hardware than kobe is laughable......

The years that Nash won it.
Who would you have given it to?

Originally Posted by alysheba4

......how he has more m.v.p hardware than kobe is laughable......

Now it is.
At the time, no one brought it up.
The were griping how Kobe should have won
it during the Shaq years.

You guys have forgot one huge thing.
Think about WHEN the MVP votes come in.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by pgardn

No they dont say it enough.
Tim Duncan does the same thing for the Spurs
at Center/PF. Do you really think Tony Parker
would have an open lane to the rim and shoot over
50% going on the 3rd season in a row without Duncan?
There are so many more examples.

Dont put these guys in the same sentence.
Kobe can and will play defense.

Why was Iverson absent from the latest Olympic team?
The one that actually got the Gold. Jason KIdd made that team.
And KIdd cant even get close to moving like he used to.

Lets hear exactly what Iverson has done for the PIstons...
Besides his best to bring them down to a .500 team.

Of course it's important to make your teammates better. But it's not always the most important thing in the game. As I said, it's more important to make your team win than it is to make your team better and sometimes, with a guy like Kobe or Iverson, it's more important to go for 50 or 60 than it is to share the ball and get everyone involved. And again, Iverson and Kobe both have led lesser teams to the Finals than Nash, who has never gotten there.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The years that Nash won it.
Who would you have given it to?

Shaq the first year, LeBron James the second. Not even close.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Now it is.
At the time, no one brought it up.
The were griping how Kobe should have won
it during the Shaq years.

You guys have forgot one huge thing.
Think about WHEN the MVP votes come in.

Are you serious? There was a huge debate about it, especially the first year when Shaq didn't win it. In fact, Nash's 34 point win was the closest vote since the 96-97 season when Malone beat out Jordan by 31 points.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Are you serious? There was a huge debate about it, especially the first year when Shaq didn't win it. In fact, Nash's 34 point win was the closest vote since the 96-97 season when Malone beat out Jordan by 31 points.

What was the vote the other year?

And the MVP is decided before the NBA champion is determined so
basically it is a regular season award. To say Nash was underserving
is fine. But to say Shaq gets it because the Lakers won the championship
is not following how the MVP is determined. imo its a silly award anyway.

The point that was made by Marc Jackson that started the thread
was that Iverson's offensive dribbling around like Nash has some sort
of cohesive effect offensively just like Nash.

And that is just total BS.