Clockers

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I never figured it out why we are subjected to an all-out ambush of workout reports from these guys before the Kentucky Derby and Breeders Cup ... but never get to hear or read a peep from them on TVG or DRF before races with a lot of first time starters or a race with an obvious contender on paper returning from layoff.... you know, situations when the skills they have are actually useful.

It's pretty amusing how they're all super impressed about how Zensational and Lookin At Lucky are training.

Lookin At Lucky RNA'd for 35K at Kee Sept as a yearling - and seven months later he sold for 475K at a 2yo in training sale. Why? It's not because his looks and pedigree changed in 7 months ... it's because he trained like an absolute MoFo in the under-tack show.

Zensational sold for 20K as a yearling .. and resold for 700K at an in training sale 5 months later. Again .. his pedigree and confirmation didn't change in 5 months time .. the unheard of gap in sales prices was because he trained like a beast and was a total athlete.

The only thing useful you can hear in these workout reports from clockers with horses like these ... is if they say that they have followed said horse and watched them train all through their racing career ... and now the horse is either suddenly looking or training much worse than ever. Or, that they've followed said horse all along .. and the horse seems to be training markedly better after a recent equipment change or minor opperation or something.

It's a shame we never get to hear or read this type of stuff when it's very useful. But when it's pretty much not useful at all ... we get blitzed with it.

[Bigsmc]

^^^

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I never figured it out why we are subjected to an all-out ambush of workout reports from these guys before the Kentucky Derby and Breeders Cup ... but never get to hear or read a peep from them on TVG or DRF before races with a lot of first time starters or a race with an obvious contender on paper returning from layoff.... you know, situations when the skills they have are actually useful.

It's pretty amusing how they're all super impressed about how Zensational and Lookin At Lucky are training.

Lookin At Lucky RNA'd for 35K at Kee Sept as a yearling - and seven months later he sold for 475K at a 2yo in training sale. Why? It's not because his looks and pedigree changed in 7 months ... it's because he trained like an absolute MoFo in the under-tack show.

Zensational sold for 20K as a yearling .. and resold for 700K at an in training sale 5 months later. Again .. his pedigree and confirmation didn't change in 5 months time .. the unheard of gap in sales prices was because he trained like a beast and was a total athlete.

The only thing useful you can hear in these workout reports from clockers with horses like these ... is if they say that they have followed said horse and watched them train all through their racing career ... and now the horse is either suddenly looking or training much worse than ever. Or, that they've followed said horse all along .. and the horse seems to be training markedly better after a recent equipment change or minor opperation or something.

It's a shame we never get to hear or read this type of stuff when it's very useful. But when it's pretty much not useful at all ... we get blitzed with it.

Gosh.. Does this include having you on ATR later today to discuss the 2yo's and things like their breeze show performances and sales history?

Clockers CHARGE for their reports and insights the rest of the year..
http://www.nationalturf.com/

They're available and publicized at the Derby and Cup because the information should be made widely available given the crush of horses people need to decipher.

[Bigsmc]

With horses coming from all points, I would tend to take any clocker info coming from Santa Anita with a massive grain of salt and most certainly wouldn't pay for that information.

How do any of them know how a horse that is not stabled on the west coast, normally looks, moves, behaves in the am? If they don't know the trainer's program, how can they judge a workout or the intent of that work?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

With horses coming from all points, I would tend to take any clocker info coming from Santa Anita with a massive grain of salt and most certainly wouldn't pay for that information.

How do any of them know how a horse that is not stabled on the west coast, normally looks, moves, behaves in the am? If they don't know the trainer's program, how can they judge a workout or the intent of that work?

I noticed that the clocker's reports in the DRF are comparing how returning horses worked last year compared to this year. Like you said, take it with a grain of salt, but at least to me it is helpful to narrow down my selections.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

With horses coming from all points, I would tend to take any clocker info coming from Santa Anita with a massive grain of salt and most certainly wouldn't pay for that information.

How do any of them know how a horse that is not stabled on the west coast, normally looks, moves, behaves in the am? If they don't know the trainer's program, how can they judge a workout or the intent of that work?

Yesterday, I had Santa Anita's John Malone specifically to address how the locals are coming into the weekend. Certainly, top clockers like ATR guests Malone, Mike Welsch and Gary Young can give indications of how any horse they are watching is getting over surfaces or if there perceptable changes in a horse as a week progresses. They can also offer finish up insights or gallop out times, etc., whether they are horses well known to them or not.

The majority of listeners to ATR have always seemed to relish these visits specifically because they are not as widely available regularly. (Though when a Welsch or Free, et al, visit during the year for stakes previews, they frequently cite the recent morning efforts...)

[SCUDSBROTHER]

That guy, Mr. Free, has an appropriate last name. I can't imagine why anyone would ever have to pay to hear, see, or read that Mr. Free.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Gosh.. Does this include having you on ATR later today to discuss the 2yo's and things like their breeze show performances and sales history?

Clockers CHARGE for their reports and insights the rest of the year..
http://www.nationalturf.com/

They're available and publicized at the Derby and Cup because the information should be made widely available given the crush of horses people need to decipher.

Breeze show performances and sales history is an all-time great betting angle with debuters in early season 2yo races ... it's pretty much not very useful info in terms of betting after a horse has debuted.

My frustration is that a company like TVG does't pay clockers in a few major locations ... and have them come on for 5 or 10 minutes each day to talk about races with debuters or horses returning from layoffs.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Yesterday, I had Santa Anita's John Malone specifically to address how the locals are coming into the weekend. Certainly, top clockers like ATR guests Malone, Mike Welsch and Gary Young can give indications of how any horse they are watching is getting over surfaces or if there perceptable changes in a horse as a week progresses. They can also offer finish up insights or gallop out times, etc., whether they are horses well known to them or not.

The majority of listeners to ATR have always seemed to relish these visits specifically because they are not as widely available regularly. (Though when a Welsch or Free, et al, visit during the year for stakes previews, they frequently cite the recent morning efforts...)

To each his own. I much preferred listening to Mr. Luck vs Mr. Malone.

[DaTruth]

The same can apply to most paddock observations. You don't know what you are seeing unless you have a baseline comparison for the horse. I look for more important paddock indications like the redneck trainer dressed up before a stakes, or local owners not bothering to show up before an important race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The same can apply to most paddock observations. You don't know what you are seeing unless you have a baseline comparison for the horse. I look for more important paddock indications like the redneck trainer dressed up before a stakes, or local owners not bothering to show up before an important race.

One of the best betting angles of all at PID is when a local owner happens to show up for a race.

A couple of the guys tend to bring the entire yacht club with them .. and a lot of them will bet the horses into the teeth of the small pools as though odds mean nothing.

It's great stuff if you're lucky enough to be able to get action at track odds through a connection. Though, finding such a connection is not easy.

I most enjoy it when the trainers beam and rave about how much their horses "love this track!" before said horse has actually ever raced on it ... and when said horse inevitably flops when he races on it ... you often get a bitter helping of how the track is totally different in the morning than in the evening.

You know... if only the race had been run at 7AM instead of 7PM ... the horse would have won by four instead of finishing a perfect trip 6th at 5/2.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The same can apply to most paddock observations. You don't know what you are seeing unless you have a baseline comparison for the horse. I look for more important paddock indications like the redneck trainer dressed up before a stakes, or local owners not bothering to show up before an important race.

I laughed.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

I laughed.

The workout game in California is basically a cottage industry - they crave workout data out there more than anywhere else, all season long. I think it's mostly because, thanks to the weather, people don't really mind the long, toiling hours of doing it - even in the winter.

If about a third of the clocking that is done in California was done at other tracks, we'd have a tornado of additional data.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Yesterday, I had Santa Anita's John Malone specifically to address how the locals are coming into the weekend. Certainly, top clockers like ATR guests Malone, Mike Welsch and Gary Young can give indications of how any horse they are watching is getting over surfaces or if there perceptable changes in a horse as a week progresses. They can also offer finish up insights or gallop out times, etc., whether they are horses well known to them or not.

The majority of listeners to ATR have always seemed to relish these visits specifically because they are not as widely available regularly. (Though when a Welsch or Free, et al, visit during the year for stakes previews, they frequently cite the recent morning efforts...)

Please never confuse drugS superior abilty with 2 year olds with the work out warriors in the AM.. Its like me against Andre the Giant in a steel cage match.. DrugS is just better!

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

The workout game in California is basically a cottage industry - they crave workout data out there more than anywhere else, all season long. I think it's mostly because, thanks to the weather, people don't really mind the long, toiling hours of doing it - even in the winter.

If about a third of the clocking that is done in California was done at other tracks, we'd have a tornado of additional data.

The information I crave is negative information. It is much more valuable to know when a horse is off his feed, was sick two days ago, or is just in the race to make the race go because the racing office has promised to write a race for another horse in the barn. Of course, the value of positive information goes up considerably when the horse in question is running for the first time or is making his American debut after being purchased overseas.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Please never confuse drugS superior abilty with 2 year olds with the work out warriors in the AM.. Its like me against Andre the Giant in a steel cage match.. DrugS is just better!

I would take the clockers and the points.

They, atleast, go outside.


Come to Vegas Freddy. Scav will be there.

[Honu]

The thing about private clockers is they have no clue what the riders instructions are before going out for a work , therefore when they see something in reality they have no clue what has went on before hand.
Last year I worked in company on a 3 yr old maiden filly with Mine That Bird and I was breaking her jaw in the workout to keep her from being in front of him , private clockers were all over her saying how good she must be lol.....he won the Derby and she is running for 32k claiming.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

The same can apply to most paddock observations. You don't know what you are seeing unless you have a baseline comparison for the horse. I look for more important paddock indications like the redneck trainer dressed up before a stakes, or local owners not bothering to show up before an important race.

Made me LOL too. Decide if the horse can RUN and learn how to tell if the horse wants to RUN.