Three Year Old Champion.......

I guess The Travers will play a huge role in who wins this award. If Bernardini wins, I feel he is in the cat bird seat to win this award. If BC wins then I think it is a complete toss up. If neither wins, then it leaves Barbaro as the leader. What is unusual about this year is that Barbaro is constantly in the news. If he was just retired then we wouldnt here much about him. This means, his performances will still be in the judges minds. Maybe the sleeper is Showing Up. What if this hose goes on winning and capturing the BC Turf...do you dare give the award to a turf horse? I think you would have to if BC and Bernardini loses the Travers and doesnt go on to defeat older horses. Does BC and Bernardini need to just win the Travers and perform well in the BC Classic to win? I dont think that is enough to beat Barbaro or Showing Up. Should be interesting to see how things unfold. But it is hard to ignore Showing Up even though he is a turf horse.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I guess The Travers will play a huge role in who wins this award. If Bernardini wins, I feel he is in the cat bird seat to win this award. If BC wins then I think it is a complete toss up. If neither wins, then it leaves Barbaro as the leader. What is unusual about this year is that Barbaro is constantly in the news. If he was just retired then we wouldnt here much about him. This means, his performances will still be in the judges minds. Maybe the sleeper is Showing Up. What if this hose goes on winning and capturing the BC Turf...do you dare give the award to a turf horse? I think you would have to if BC and Bernardini loses the Travers and doesnt go on to defeat older horses. Does BC and Bernardini need to just win the Travers and perform well in the BC Classic to win? I dont think that is enough to beat Barbaro or Showing Up. Should be interesting to see how things unfold. But it is hard to ignore Showing Up even though he is a turf horse.

I suspect it's going to go like this:

If Bernardini wins the Travers and beats halfway decent older horses later this year, he will be the 3YO champ. If he doesn't, Barbaro will.

I consider it highly unlikely that Showing Up would win the general 3YO championship no matter what he does on the turf. Barbaro beat him with ease in the Derby; I personally would be uncomfortable assuming that Showing Up is superior to Barbaro. Besides, considering that a horse like Manila - who had won United Nations by this time in his career and went on to close out 1986 with a six-race winning streak, including the Turf Classic and BC Turf - could not beat Snow Chief (one classic win, no wins past May) for the 3YO championship does not suggest to me that Showing Up, who assuredly will accomplish less, should.

[jpops757]

The other Cat threw his hat back into the ring today.

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

I suspect it's going to go like this:

If Bernardini wins the Travers and beats halfway decent older horses later this year, he will be the 3YO champ. If he doesn't, Barbaro will.

In no way, shape or form ...

... does Barbaro deserve the 3YO championship.

That accolade should go to the horse who does the most on the track ... not the one who gets the most "Get Well" cards.

Barbaro had two G1 wins through early May ... that's not enough for a championship. If no other 3YO does any better ... then ... like last year's Sprinter championship ... the award should be vacated.

Better no champion ... than another fiasco like Lost In The Fog.

Originally Posted by jpops757

The other Cat threw his hat back into the ring today.

Yup ... he's gonna make it a real interesting Fall.

It's nice to finally have a superior quality crop of race horses ... top 3YOs at sprint and classic distances ... it's really been quite a long time.

No "hip-hip-hoorays" just yet ... but we're getting there.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Yup ... he's gonna make it a real interesting Fall.

It's nice to finally have a superior quality crop of race horses ... top 3YOs at sprint and classic distances ... it's really been quite a long time.

No "hip-hip-hoorays" just yet ... but we're getting there.

It looks like the 3 year olds are better than the older horses right now. I think Henny Hughes is the best sprinter. Going long I think the two best horses are Bernardni and Discreet Cat.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

In no way, shape or form ...

... does Barbaro deserve the 3YO championship.

That accolade should go to the horse who does the most on the track ... not the one who gets the most "Get Well" cards.

Barbaro had two G1 wins through early May ... that's not enough for a championship. If no other 3YO does any better ... then ... like last year's Sprinter championship ... the award should be vacated.

Better no champion ... than another fiasco like Lost In The Fog.

I'm not saying that I like it, just that that is probably what will happen.

Besides, to be fair, let's consider the reality of recent 3YO champions. It's not as though that many recent champion 3YO males had more than 2 G1 wins at 3, or any G1 wins after the classics. Having only two G1 wins, none later than May, did not prevent Smarty Jones, Funny Cide, Charismatic, Real Quiet, Silver Charm or Hansel from getting 3YO championships; Afleet Alex had only two, the latter of which came 11 days into June. Prairie Bayou had only a single G1 win in his career.

BB, you know I'd like to see 3YO males capable of being a dominating presence against their peers in the classics and able to beat realistic older horses, but we're in an unpleasant era when that kind of horse is pretty scarce. The last 3YO male to win at least two classics and win a G1 vs. older later at 3? I believe that would be Sunday Silence, and that's getting to be a seriously long time ago.

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

I'm not saying that I like it, just that that is probably what will happen.

Besides, to be fair, let's consider the reality of recent 3YO champions. It's not as though that many recent champion 3YO males had more than 2 G1 wins at 3, or any G1 wins after the classics. Having only two G1 wins, none later than May, did not prevent Smarty Jones, Funny Cide, Charismatic, Real Quiet, Silver Charm or Hansel from getting 3YO championships; Afleet Alex had only two, the latter of which came 11 days into June. Prairie Bayou had only a single G1 win in his career.

BB, you know I'd like to see 3YO males capable of being a dominating presence against their peers in the classics and able to beat realistic older horses, but we're in an unpleasant era when that kind of horse is pretty scarce. The last 3YO male to win at least two classics and win a G1 vs. older later at 3? I believe that would be Sunday Silence, and that's getting to be a seriously long time ago.

Bernardini and Discreet Cat ...

... will make all questions moot.

By October we'll be saying ... "Barbaro? Oh, yeah ... I remember him."

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

The last 3YO male to win at least two classics and win a G1 vs. older later at 3? I believe that would be Sunday Silence, and that's getting to be a seriously long time ago.

See my comments on "The Other Cat" thread ...

... about finally having a quality crop.

Yes ... for those of us old enough to remember ... it's been a long, long time.

Kiss me once
And kiss me twice
And kiss me once again
It's been a long, long time

Haven't felt
Like this my dear
Since can't remember when
It's been a long, long time

barbaro won the derby, remember? over a tremendous field, many times said the BEST in YEARS. and by a huge margin. believe me, his accomplishments shine, and wont be forgotten--and a lot of voters believe he'd still be tops had he not gotten hurt. an injury knocked him out for the year, it won't cost him much since it was out of everyones control.

this crop is amazing, soon as a 3 yo gets attention, another comes along to knock him off the top--or try.
discreet cat reminded everyone today of his presence and his talent. amazing isn't it that bernardini gets so much hype, while still 'behind the times' regarding running at the classic distance.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

I'm not saying that I like it, just that that is probably what will happen.

Besides, to be fair, let's consider the reality of recent 3YO champions. It's not as though that many recent champion 3YO males had more than 2 G1 wins at 3, or any G1 wins after the classics. Having only two G1 wins, none later than May, did not prevent Smarty Jones, Funny Cide, Charismatic, Real Quiet, Silver Charm or Hansel from getting 3YO championships; Afleet Alex had only two, the latter of which came 11 days into June. Prairie Bayou had only a single G1 win in his career.

BB, you know I'd like to see 3YO males capable of being a dominating presence against their peers in the classics and able to beat realistic older horses, but we're in an unpleasant era when that kind of horse is pretty scarce. The last 3YO male to win at least two classics and win a G1 vs. older later at 3? I believe that would be Sunday Silence, and that's getting to be a seriously long time ago.

I'd like to know how many horses are on that list period. It's probably a very short list. Tabasco Cat came really close when he lost the 1994 Classic to Concern.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

See my comments on "The Other Cat" thread ...

... about finally having a quality crop.

Yes ... for those of us old enough to remember ... it's been a long, long time.

Kiss me once
And kiss me twice
And kiss me once again
It's been a long, long time

Haven't felt
Like this my dear
Since can't remember when
It's been a long, long time

It's been so long that I wasn't even a cranky, cynical curmudgeon yet in those days.

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

It's been so long that I wasn't even a cranky, cynical curmudgeon yet in those days.

I was born that way.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd like to know how many horses are on that list period. It's probably a very short list. Tabasco Cat came really close when he lost the 1994 Classic to Concern.

Lots and lots ...

... in fact ... it was once fairly typical for the top Triple Crown performing 3YOS to beat up on the older horses in the Fall in the 1940's ... 1950's ... and 1960's.

Alsab, Assault, Phalanx, Citation, Capot, Hill Prince, Counterpoint, One Count, High Gun, Nashua, Bold Ruler, Sword Dancer, Damascus, and Arts And Letters ... all were 3YO champions who participated in more than one Triple Crown race ... and came back in the Fall and won G1 races over older horses.

Assault, Citation, Capot, Nashua, and Damascus all won two or more Triple Crown races ... and all the rest won one.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Lots and lots ...

... in fact ... it was once failry typical for the top Triple Crown performing 3YOS to beat up on the older horses in the Fall in the 1940's ... 1950's ... and 1960's.

Alsab, Assault, Phalanx, Citation, Capot, Hill Prince, Counterpoint, One Count, High Gun, Nashua, Bold Ruler, Sword Dancer, Damascus, and Arts And Letters ... all were 3YO champions who participated in more than one Triple Crown race ... and came back in the Fall and won G1 races over older horses.

Assault, Citation, Capot, Nashua, and Damascus all won two or more Triple Crown races ... and nearly all the rest won one.

Phalaris had specifically said won at least two TC races and a grade one against older later in the fall of their 3yo season. That's what I was asking about.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Phalaris had specifically said won at least two TC races and a grade one against older later in the fall of their 3yo season. That's what I was asking about.

Well ... I gave you five.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Well ... I gave you five.

Short list as I suspected. Which makes it not so unusual that there has been a long gap since the last time it was done.

[somerfrost]

Barbaro will be named 3 year old champ....he deserves it and will win it. I'm not going through this debate again, we have it every year. The only question left is who will be HOY? I think it's between two horses...Barbaro and Lava Man. Certainly if the Travers goes as many expect and a BCC win follows, a third name will be dropped in the hat, but a loss in either race and it's over!

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Short list as I suspected. Which makes it not so unusual that there has been a long gap since the last time it was done.

I only did 1940-1969 ... shall I go further?

How about Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Spend A Buck*, and the aforementioned Sunday Silence? All multiple Triple Crown race winners who won G1's over older horses.

That brings the total to 10.


*Spend A Buck won the Jersey Derby over other Triple Crown horses .. instead of the Preakness ... collecting a big bonus.

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I'd like to know how many horses are on that list period. It's probably a very short list. Tabasco Cat came really close when he lost the 1994 Classic to Concern.

Actually, given that US races have only been graded since 1973, there are only two horses other than Sunday Silence who won at least two classics and a G1 vs. older as a 3YO. Those two occasions were Spectacular Bid winning the Marlboro and Pleasant Colony winning the Woodward. (Secretariat won the Marlboro, but the race was not graded until its third running in 1975.)

Still, there have been 17 classic seasons since Sunday Silence, a span of time that saw 11 dual classic winners. Not one was able to win a G1 vs. older as a 3YO and of those, Tabasco Cat was the only one who placed in one. There were 17 seasons between 1973 and 1989, with the same number of horses that won at least two classic races, with three of them going on to win a G1 vs. older as a 3YO. Secretariat at least won a race of central importance (the Marlboro was ungraded, but was the richest race of the year). Affirmed and Alysheba both finished second in G1s vs. older. There simply was a greater presence of multiple classic 3YOs in the fall vs. their elders in the earlier period vs. the later period.

Those of us who came of age in racing in the 1980s and before remember champion 3YO males who were both dominant classic horses and credible late in the year. Expecting that, however, is probably obsolete, given the increasing rarity of classic winners having much of a post-classic career.