Jon White on the Best Horses of the last 50 years...

[smuthg]

http://www.xpressbet.com/columns.asp...uthor=JonWhite

Sharpen your pitch forks...

[TouchOfGrey]

Originally Posted by smuthg

http://www.xpressbet.com/columns.asp...uthor=JonWhite

Sharpen your pitch forks...

Xpressbet is blocked here at work. Could you or someone please post the list?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by TouchOfGrey

Xpressbet is blocked here at work. Could you or someone please post the list?

TOP 10 MALES OF THE PAST 50 YEARS

1. Secretariat
2. Kelso
3. Spectacular Bid
4. Dr. Fager
5. Seattle Slew
6. Forego
7. Affirmed
8. Buckpasser
9. Damascus
10. John Henry
In the March 17 edition of this column, I asked the question, “Where does Zenyatta fit among America’s all-time greats?”

I emphasized that I was not talking about Zenyatta’s proper place among female Thoroughbreds. I was talking about where she ranks among the greatest Thoroughbreds to have ever graced the American racing stage.

I began the exercise by asking, “Does Zenyatta belong in the Top 10?” At first, I thought she probably did. But, after considering who would be on such an all-time Top 10 list, I came to the conclusion that Zenyatta did not belong on it, at least not yet.

This is my list of the 10 best Thoroughbreds ever to have raced in this country:

1. Man o’ War
2. Secretariat
3. Citation
4. Kelso
5. Spectacular Bid
6. Dr. Fager
7. Native Dancer
8. Seattle Slew
9. Count Fleet
10. Forego

However, I do put Zenyatta in my next 10:

11. Ruffian
12. Zenyatta
13. Tom Fool
14. Affirmed
15. War Admiral
16. Buckpasser
17. Colin
18. Damascus
19. Round Table
20. Swaps

My Top 20 list of all time certainly helped me begin the process of compiling my list of the Top 10 males of the last 50 years. And then, as I turned my attention to constructing my list of the top 10 fillies of the last half-century, I started it with the only two fillies, Ruffian and Zenyatta, that I had put on my Top 20.

TOP 10 FILLIES OF THE LAST 50 YEARS

1. Ruffian
2. Zenyatta
3. Personal Ensign
4. Rachel Alexandra
5. Ta Wee
6. Shuvee
7. Lady’s Secret
8. Go for Wand
9. Azeri
10. Princess Rooney

[Antitrust32]

oh my god.

Shoot, 7, 8 & 10 on the female list would have beat the snot out of #2 and #4 on a consistant basis.

I do, however, believe that Zenyatta is a million times better than Affirmed, War Admiral, Buckpasser, Damascus, Round Table, Swaps, etc.


I could name 50 horses in the past 20 years that have been better than Zenyatta & Rachel.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

TOP 10 MALES OF THE PAST 50 YEARS

1. Secretariat
2. Kelso
3. Spectacular Bid
4. Dr. Fager
5. Seattle Slew
6. Forego
7. Affirmed
8. Buckpasser
9. Damascus
10. John Henry
In the March 17 edition of this column, I asked the question, “Where does Zenyatta fit among America’s all-time greats?”

I emphasized that I was not talking about Zenyatta’s proper place among female Thoroughbreds. I was talking about where she ranks among the greatest Thoroughbreds to have ever graced the American racing stage.

I began the exercise by asking, “Does Zenyatta belong in the Top 10?” At first, I thought she probably did. But, after considering who would be on such an all-time Top 10 list, I came to the conclusion that Zenyatta did not belong on it, at least not yet.

This is my list of the 10 best Thoroughbreds ever to have raced in this country:

1. Man o’ War
2. Secretariat
3. Citation
4. Kelso
5. Spectacular Bid
6. Dr. Fager
7. Native Dancer
8. Seattle Slew
9. Count Fleet
10. Forego

However, I do put Zenyatta in my next 10:

11. Ruffian
12. Zenyatta
13. Tom Fool
14. Affirmed
15. War Admiral
16. Buckpasser
17. Colin
18. Damascus
19. Round Table
20. Swaps

My Top 20 list of all time certainly helped me begin the process of compiling my list of the Top 10 males of the last 50 years. And then, as I turned my attention to constructing my list of the top 10 fillies of the last half-century, I started it with the only two fillies, Ruffian and Zenyatta, that I had put on my Top 20.

TOP 10 FILLIES OF THE LAST 50 YEARS

1. Ruffian
2. Zenyatta
3. Personal Ensign
4. Rachel Alexandra
5. Ta Wee
6. Shuvee
7. Lady’s Secret
8. Go for Wand
9. Azeri
10. Princess Rooney

It's an illness.

Maybe he can get a video blog on PR too.

[slotdirt]

I don't know, Zenyatta better than Affirmed? War Admiral? I don't think I can buy that.

[slotdirt]

P.S. - I was also shocked Pioneer of the Nile wasn't on here at least somewhere.

[Indian Charlie]

So, the only horse he'd rank high since the early 80s, besides John Henry, is Zenyatta?

Zenyatta is the best horse since John Henry?

I could easily come up with 50 horses since JH that are better than Z.

Maybe even his beloved POTN.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I don't know, Zenyatta better than Affirmed?

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Oh for sure.
Affirmed had a good record but he got it by running against mules like Spectacular Bid, Alydar, Seattle Slew, Exceller, Sensitive Prince, etc. He couldn't have handled the horses Zenyatta has faced.

<snicker>

and round table, 19th. lol omg, yeah, he's one of the members of the crop billed the best ever. threw down not one, but two win streaks the likes of which most horses never see. considered the top turfer ever in this country. EVER. zenyatta isn't fit to be mentioned in the same thread as most of those horses above.


and this, this is akin to blasphemy:

While I currently put Ruffian ahead of Zenyatta, it is getting very close to the point that I will decide to move Zenyatta above Ruffian. My thinking is I probably will make that switch if Zenyatta remains undefeated and manages to win a second Breeders’ Cup Classic this year.

ruffian lead at every call of every race she ever ran in. she never gave up the lead until she gave up everything.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by Danzig

<snicker>

and round table, 19th. lol omg, yeah, he's one of the members of the crop billed the best ever. threw down not one, but two win streaks the likes of which most horses never see. considered the top turfer ever in this country. EVER. zenyatta isn't fit to be mentioned in the same thread as most of those horses above.


and this, this is akin to blasphemy:

While I currently put Ruffian ahead of Zenyatta, it is getting very close to the point that I will decide to move Zenyatta above Ruffian. My thinking is I probably will make that switch if Zenyatta remains undefeated and manages to win a second Breeders’ Cup Classic this year.

ruffian lead at every call of every race she ever ran in. she never gave up the lead until she gave up everything.

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

So should I start changing my opinion on NFL players because John Clayton and Deion Sanders hold a different opinion?

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by smuthg

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

Screw Jon White (whoever the **** he is) and Davidowitz too. When the day comes that someone with their OWN opinion needs to start paying attention to people that are selling 'information' (Davidowitz is definitely doing this), that's the day they need to give up the game. Let's push the TOUTS out of the game.

[Cannon Shell]

Ranking a horse in any top whatever list prior to their careers being over is idiotic.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by smuthg

Isn't there only one call that really matters in racing, the one that has 17 straight "1"s in it for Zenyatta.

I realize its hard to believe, but when you have people like Jon White and Steve Davidowitz saying that Zenyatta is the best mare or one of the two best mares they've ever seen, shouldn't that make you look at and appreciate Zenyatta rather than continue to degrade her and her performances???

i'm not quite sure how saying she isn't comparable to ruffian is degrading. considering what ruffian did, how she ran, and her records and wins....i don't think i'm wrong in this case. i like zenyatta, as i do any racehorse, i appreciate what she's done. however, i would not go so far as to rank her above one of the best race fillies ever, nor do i think zenyatta belongs in the top 20 in the last fifty years. considering the elite company on that list, she does NOT belong. she's no weight carrier like kelso, she hasn't smashed a mile record under a huge impost like dr fager, she hasn't shipped all over and beaten all comers on mulitiple surfaces like round table, who ran for years, including in the spring classics vs the likes of iron liege and bold ruler. how is saying she does not compare to some of the truest greats ever to grace this sport degrading to her?! it is degrading to those great horses to have her on the same list! find one time that i 'degraded' her, her races, her performances. just one. now, if you find my lack of real respect for her in regards to the likes of damascus, sword dancer, and count fleet, war admiral, etc degrading...well, then i guess i'm guilty. gimme a break.

one damned win in unrestricted company and she's one of the top 20.

if that's considered great, i guess great isn't so great anymore. as for jon white, remind me how he was right on POTN winning the tc again...yeah, he's so smart. his opinion is unassailable.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i'm not quite sure how saying she isn't comparable to ruffian is degrading. considering what ruffian did, how she ran, and her records and wins....i don't think i'm wrong in this case. i like zenyatta, as i do any racehorse, i appreciate what she's done. however, i would not go so far as to rank her above one of the best race fillies ever, nor do i think zenyatta belongs in the top 20 in the last fifty years. considering the elite company on that list, she does NOT belong. she's no weight carrier like kelso, she hasn't smashed a mile record under a huge impost like dr fager, she hasn't shipped all over and beaten all comers on mulitiple surfaces like round table, who ran for years, including in the spring classics vs the likes of iron liege and bold ruler. how is saying she does not compare to some of the truest greats ever to grace this sport degrading to her?! it is degrading to those great horses to have her on the same list! find one time that i 'degraded' her, her races, her performances. just one. now, if you find my lack of real respect for her in regards to the likes of damascus, sword dancer, and count fleet, war admiral, etc degrading...well, then i guess i'm guilty. gimme a break.

Don't bother. Where does she rank if she lost by a head last out? Where does she rank if she loses to the usual drivel in the Hirsh or whatever soft spot the run in next? Here is a good way to measure the horses above, if any of them lost their last race would they plummet in the theoretical rankings like Zenyatta would?

[letswastemoney]

How are you supposed to compare Zenyatta to dirt horses who have much more than 2 wins on dirt??!?!?!?! It makes nooooooooooooooo sense to me.

This is about as useful as comparing Bayakoa's career vs. Flawlessly! Ouija Board vs. Ghostzapper.

To make lists like Jon White made, you have to assume the dynamics of synthetic racing is similar to most dirt tracks, especially the type of dirt tracks the top horses on those lists ran on. Otherwise, it's a difficult comparison given the differences in what it takes to win on each surface.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

T

This is my list of the 10 best Thoroughbreds ever to have raced in this country:

1. Man o’ War
2. Secretariat
3. Citation
4. Kelso
5. Spectacular Bid
6. Dr. Fager
7. Native Dancer
8. Seattle Slew
9. Count Fleet
10. Forego

What, no Colin? Sysonby? Domino? Salvator? Lexington? American Eclipse? Sir Archy? When you say "ever to have raced in this country", you are covering a lot of time and a lot of types of racing. I think this list covers only the "modern era", post-WWI, but even then, it is heavily weighted to the post-WWII era.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

What, no Colin? Sysonby? Domino? Salvator? Lexington? American Eclipse? Sir Archy?

I believe he had Salvator #2 on his 'men I want to cuddle with' list.