3/12 (TAM): Pletcher enters Mo and Brethren; field of 10 for Derby

Kasept · #1 03-08-2011, 08:02 AM

Tampa Bay Derby rides on Pletcher decision
By Doug McCoy

OLDSMAR, Fla. – ”What’s Todd going to do?” That simple question has trainers and owners of a number of 3-year-olds in a state of flux as they ponder the status of trainer Todd Pletcher’s 2-year-old champion, Uncle Mo, and his undefeated stablemate, Sam Davis Stakes winner Brethren, for this Saturday’s Grade 2, $350,000 Tampa Bay Derby...

Bretheren
Uncle Mo*
Too Experience
Watch Me Go
Beamer
Free Entry

Economic Summit
Moonhanger
Striding Ahead
Symphonic Hero
Neil Howard (Close Ally, Machen, Prime Cut, Sports Day, Wilkinson)

Hillsborough

Askbut I Won’ttell
Zagora
War Tigress
Box Office Queen
Denomination
General Consensus
It’s Tea Time
Kiss Mine

Belle Watling
C.S. Silk
Keertana
Ruling Class

Sightseek · #2 03-08-2011, 09:17 AM

Wouldn't it be nice if trainers started taking the attitude who cares what Pletcher does, I'm going to run my horse!

Kasept · #3 03-08-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Wouldn't it be nice if trainers started taking the attitude who cares what Pletcher does, I'm going to run my horse!

If the premise is that Uncle Mo running at Tampa means everyone else is running for 2nd and below, trainers that have only two shots to gain graded earnings for Derby would be irresponsible to not consider every alternative available.

Sightseek · #4 03-08-2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

If the premise is that Uncle Mo running at Tampa means everyone else is running for 2nd and below, trainers that have only two shots to gain graded earnings for Derby would be irresponsible to not consider every alternative available.

Well duh, but sorry I don't feel sorry for them and do you really think all of these extra races being written and holding off until late in the season to scoop-up your horses Graded earnings are really good for the game? It is not like there hasn't been plenty of options from their 2 year old season up to now.

It's tiring as a racing fan and part of what I see as the problem for building popularity of the sport.

Kasept · #5 03-08-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Well duh, but sorry I don't feel sorry for them and do you really think all of these extra races being written and holding off until late in the season to scoop-up your horses Graded earnings are really good for the game? It is not like there hasn't been plenty of options from their 2 year old season up to now.

It's tiring as a racing fan and part of what I see as the problem for building popularity of the sport.

Don't know what to tell you. There's as many racing fans taking the opposite view from you that the 2yo earnings shouldn't be weighted as heavily toward the Derby gate as 3yo earnings. I don't like the racing office accomodation trend at all, as I said to Mike Welsch Friday, but you chided trainers that are considering every opportunity to build earnings for their horse. You make it out like every trainer that's waiting and watching had a horse as ready for stakes as a 2yo as they may be now.

Those trainers who you don't feel sorry for generally have exactly ONE horse and ONE chance to get to the Derby, as opposed to 'Team Todd'. Pletcher, not 'those trainers', is more the root cause of the scenario at hand. But don't worry... one year soon Pletcher will have every single 3yo in the country and we won't have to feel sorry for the trainers trying to get their one horse to the Derby. Because there won't be any.

Sightseek · #6 03-08-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Don't know what to tell you. There's as many racing fans taking the opposite view from you that the 2yo earnings shouldn't be weighted as heavily toward the Derby gate as 3yo earnings. I don't like the racing office accomodation trend at all, as I said to Mike Welsch Friday, but you chided trainers that are considering every opportunity to build earnings for their horse. You make it out like every trainer that's waiting and watching had a horse as ready for stakes as a 2yo as they may be now.

Those trainers who you don't feel sorry for generally have exactly ONE horse and ONE chance to get to the Derby, as opposed to 'Team Todd'. Pletcher, not 'those trainers', is more the root cause of the scenario at hand. But don't worry... one year soon Pletcher will have every single 3yo in the country and we won't have to feel sorry for the trainers trying to get their one horse to the Derby. Because there won't be any.

Actually I'm on-board for having 2yo earnings count less since it probably would cut down on the "he's got his Graded earnings" so we'll just race once or twice prior to the Derby.

I'm not making excuses for Pletcher. Uncle Mo is a fantastic horse, but you really have to hope a Gourmet Dinner or Mucho Macho Man wins the Derby and horses like Mo and others being campaigned similiarly come up short in the stretch at the Derby.

Kasept · #7 03-08-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Actually I'm on-board for having 2yo earnings count less since it probably would cut down on the "he's got his Graded earnings" so we'll just race once or twice prior to the Derby.

I'm not making excuses for Pletcher. Uncle Mo is a fantastic horse, but you really have to hope a Gourmet Dinner or Mucho Macho Man wins the Derby and horses like Mo and others being campaigned similiarly come up short in the stretch at the Derby.

So funny you say that. Told Andy over the weekend that I hoped Gourmet Dinner or some other lesser light with maybe 15 starts going in would win the Derby to quash the nonsensical 'fresh horse for the Derby' approach.

lemoncrush · #8 03-08-2011, 10:09 AM

There's really no logical reason why Dialed In shouldn't have run in Tampa rather than the Allowance last week at GP.

War Pass running a clunker there 4 years ago should have little relevance to how Dialed In would have handled that track. I realize he probably didn't like spot on the calendar either, as 3 weeks probably isn't sufficient to gear up for the Florida Derby, but....this was a horse with 1 start as a 2-year old. Let him run and get some experience.

I'm just surprised with the number of quality 3-year olds training in Florida that the Tampa Bay Derby doesn't have a stronger field.

The Indomitable DrugS · #9 03-08-2011, 10:17 AM

We covered this yesterday. Uncle Mo's fake stake will get five entries and the powers that be at GP said they'd let the race go with five.

Thunder Gulch · #10 03-08-2011, 10:19 AM

For years the standard was 3-4 preps, and Charismatic even went beyond that when he won 2/3 of the Triple Crown, plus the Lexington in a 4 week span. I thought Point Given's failed attempt to win roses off 2 preps would keep everyone on the 3 prep schedule. Then along comes Carl Nafzger with his master stroke on Street Sense, and the tide swung quickly back the other way.

I think a lot of the current line of thinking can be put on the Ragozin/Thorograph guys. Those guys are smart and what they do works for them, but when all the trainers are thinking "fresh" instead of "fit", the game suffers. You end up with 3yo's having one test before the Derby, and later in the year you are forced to decide HOY championships from a couple of 5 race campaigns.

Thunder Gulch · #11 03-08-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemoncrush

There's really no logical reason why Dialed In shouldn't have run in Tampa rather than the Allowance last week at GP.

War Pass running a clunker there 4 years ago should have little relevance to how Dialed In would have handled that track. I realize he probably didn't like spot on the calendar either, as 3 weeks probably isn't sufficient to gear up for the Florida Derby, but....this was a horse with 1 start as a 2-year old. Let him run and get some experience.

I'm just surprised with the number of quality 3-year olds training in Florida that the Tampa Bay Derby doesn't have a stronger field.

This is the one that really puzzles me. Far be it for me to question the schedule of a multiple Derby winning trainer, but Dialed In is clearly lacking experience. He ran all over the place in the Holy Bull, and he shied away from the rail vs those slugs on Sunday. He's going to have to really put it together in one more race, his 4th career start, to have a shot. He has some talent, but when you put him at the back of a 20 horse field he has little chance.

NTamm1215 · #12 03-08-2011, 10:26 AM

What will come out of this all is if another Pletcher horse wins the Derby, and considering the favorite is likely to come from his barn, they will have to be ready to run back in two weeks if they're hoping for a Triple Crown. Pletcher is 0-14 over the last five years with graded stakes horses coming back in 14 days or less. It clearly doesn't fit his "program."

3kings · #13 03-08-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

What will come out of this all is if another Pletcher horse wins the Derby, and considering the favorite is likely to come from his barn, they will have to be ready to run back in two weeks if they're hoping for a Triple Crown. Pletcher is 0-14 over the last five years with graded stakes horses coming back in 14 days or less. It clearly doesn't fit his "program."

Good stat. My question is why does everyone copy- cat stuff that negatively impacts the sport. It is getting tiresome never seeing the top contenders run against each other. I'm in the Sightseek camp, make the 2 year old earnings count only 1/2 at most and weigh the earnings by Grading ( I, II, III) while they are at it.

Linny · #14 03-08-2011, 11:01 AM

Todd has become the tail that wags the dog in this game. He stuttered about the TB Derby and GP hopped in to create a nonsense race. No one in their right mind would face Mo for so little money, especially UNGRADED money. He gets a public work, scheduled and paid foressentially as a backup plan. Other trainers who might be looking at the two options have to weigh decisions based on how they feel about running second and for how much money.
It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy when Todd (or any trainer) controls so many horses within a division (whether it's 3yo colts or NW2X allowance fillies) because Todd can get racing offices to change conditions and dates of races and add races to satisfy his barn.

Travis Stone · #15 03-08-2011, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

What will come out of this all is if another Pletcher horse wins the Derby, and considering the favorite is likely to come from his barn, they will have to be ready to run back in two weeks if they're hoping for a Triple Crown. Pletcher is 0-14 over the last five years with graded stakes horses coming back in 14 days or less. It clearly doesn't fit his "program."

I wonder if that experience last year has caused him to adjust the training of Uncle Mo, so he would be more suited to wheeling back in two weeks. Then again, the horse was hanging-out at the beach for a few months before even posting a workout. So who knows.

Travis Stone · #16 03-08-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy when Todd (or any trainer) controls so many horses within a division (whether it's 3yo colts or NW2X allowance fillies) because Todd can get racing offices to change conditions and dates of races and add races to satisfy his barn.

Plus it spreads-out good horses, leaving fewer options for stakes races throughout the year. With Todd having say 2 or 3 of the best of division "x" - when that stake comes-up at Belmont, or Saratoga, he runs one of them. Whereas if those horses who spread-out more, they all would be there.

PeteMugg · #17 03-08-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Don't know what to tell you. There's as many racing fans taking the opposite view from you that the 2yo earnings shouldn't be weighted as heavily toward the Derby gate as 3yo earnings. I don't like the racing office accomodation trend at all, as I said to Mike Welsch Friday, but you chided trainers that are considering every opportunity to build earnings for their horse. You make it out like every trainer that's waiting and watching had a horse as ready for stakes as a 2yo as they may be now.

Those trainers who you don't feel sorry for generally have exactly ONE horse and ONE chance to get to the Derby, as opposed to 'Team Todd'. Pletcher, not 'those trainers', is more the root cause of the scenario at hand. But don't worry... one year soon Pletcher will have every single 3yo in the country and we won't have to feel sorry for the trainers trying to get their one horse to the Derby. Because there won't be any.

Maybe they need fifteen slots determined by graded earnings and a handfull by invite only. A good second to UM is now a feather in your cap but still not a sure thing. Might be just the ticket to get more horses to the starting gate.