A Dose of the REAL Story

[timmgirvan]

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=5327 The Rabbis' warning is real and definitive!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=5327 The Rabbis' warning is real and definitive!

Yes, I agree.

By the way, I just heard on the news that 3 separate Baptist churches were set on fire last night. I didn't hear what state it was in.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yes, I agree.

By the way, I just heard on the news that 3 separate Baptist churches were set on fire last night. I didn't hear what state it was in.

Greenville, NC...home of East Carolina University...used to live a couple hours from there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070115/...s/church_fires

[GenuineRisk]

That was hilarious, Timm; thanks for posting it. One doesn't think his ardent sales pitch for Right-wing Christianity has anything to do with Christianists' support for Israel, does one? Oh nooooo....

What I find ironic about the ardently pro-Israel Jewish population aligning itself with the Christianists, is that the Christianists want Israel restored to the Jewish people so that Christ can come back, at which point he'll throw the Jews into eternal damnation for not being Christian, right? So it seems to one standing outside the thing as a sort of, "Here, we'll help you get what you want right now so we can get what we want and if you wind up burning in a lake of hellfire, well, that's not our problem." I guess since the Jews don't believe in Hell, they're happy for the Christians to keep deluding themselves if it means they get Israel, right, and then tough noogies to the Christians when Christ doesn't come back? Can someone explain this to me?

Someone should show this guy a copy of Thomas Jefferson's version of the New Testament, and then listen to him talk about the nation's Christian founders.

Which does not make the church burnings Rupert mentioned any less awful. Here's a link to another one, with a lovely message about how "accomodating" Christianists are to those who don't practice Christianity the way they think it should be practiced. Religious zealotry, of any religion, is baaaaaaad.

((No, Timm; I don't think you're anyting resembling a zealot. I think you're responding with genuine Christian loyalty and kindness to some very angry, unhappy people who misuse religion as an excuse for other agendas)

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/sto...ate=11/21/2006

[Danzig]

i am wading into this thread with some hesitation...not sure that i can accurately write what i think about all this.

religious zealots, regardless of religion, scare me. i know of 'abuses' in all religions. it's no different than any other group--you'll have some good, some bad, some in the middle. but you can't judge any group by the worst out of that group. by the same token, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. those who are most outspoken get the most press. sadly people judge a group solely by those they see on the six o'clock news.

i agree with genuine's post.


are there attacks on christianity? sure there are. just like there are attacks on all religions--carters recent offering on israel leaps to mind, altho it's a shame that there really seems to be no way to have a good, deep discussion about israel without it being summed up as an attack, or anti-semitic. it's a shame.

i think it's also wrong to say this nation was founded by christians for christians. most people who came here came for religious freedom. also, some of the founding fathers would probably disagree with that. i know franklin was a deist. i know some of them questioned their faith, or discussed their lack of it--adams and jefferson wrote to one another, including that they 'hoped' there was a heaven, so they could see their friends again.

i have always felt that religion should be a private thing, that everyone has to work it out on their own, and that it's between them and their god(s) or whatever higher power they believe in. i also think it's a shame that many christians aren't very 'christian' in their dealings with others.

it's a very touchy subject. very hard to 'discuss' by writing on this board.

[GenuineRisk]

Very thought-provoking post, Danzig- I agree, that it's hard to discuss religion without someone feeling their own faith is being attacked, when in fact it's usually the way the faith is being interpreted by some individuals.

Timm, really, truly, I don't think Christianity is under attack today any more or less than it ever was in this nation- if you do some research about the "war on Christmas," for example- oh, that goes back ages. In the 1800s, ministers were preaching that it was sinful, sinful, for people to exchange gifts at Christmas time, and decrying the commercialization of Christmas. In the 19th Century (I'm glad America ignored that one- I love giving people gifts). If, for any reason, it seems like more attention is paid to Christianists than Islamists here in America, it's because, honestly, we have more Christianists doing violent things here than Islamists (note, I say HERE. Islamists are absolutely tearing many other parts of the world apart... grrrr....). Probably because more Moslems here tend to be Asian Moslem, or converted Moslem, and they tend not to be poor- poverty seems to go a long way towards breeding radicalism. I read once that terrorism is the angry cry of the dispossessed, and while I think that's simplistic, I think it is easier to make a poor man strap on a bomb than a rich man- the rich will fund it, but they won't do it themselves.

I just read a review in Salon of a book written by a Wall Street Journal writer about American Islam- I think I'll have to pick it up. Here's the review- doesn't the book sound interesting?

http://salon.com/books/review/2007/01/15/muslims/

In the end, I say three cheers for the secular nation, that allows all its citizens to practice their faith as they see fit. Hey, if we really HAD been founded as a devout Christian nation- meaning, if the most devout Puritans had gotten to run things, Danzig and I would be in burkas right now-- those Puritans also believed in covering women head to toe. And I HATE wearing skirts under the best of circumstances...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=5327 The Rabbis' warning is real and definitive!

I actually enjoyed reading the Rabbi's take on things. It spurred me to spend my first hour here at work today searching for articles on both sides of the sort of "Christians-say-America-hates-them-while-liberals-say-the-Christian-Right-is-ruining-America" debate.

The one I liked the best was this one from Harper's which regardless of any politicking involved, is one hell of a magazine -- one that I greatly respect.

I just found this article interesting in the way it dissected how so many of the messages that our 'Christian Nation' sends out are so surprisingly un-Christian.

I don't think it's an inflammatory article in the least -- but a good read given the context of the original post. It sort of made me think both ways about this notion of protecting the Christian Nation, when the Nation isn't even all that Christian most of the time to begin with:

http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html

[Danzig]

[quote=GenuineRisk]Very thought-provoking post, Danzig- I agree, that it's hard to discuss religion without someone feeling their own faith is being attacked, when in fact it's usually the way the faith is being interpreted by some individuals.

Timm, really, truly, I don't think Christianity is under attack today any more or less than it ever was in this nation- if you do some research about the "war on Christmas," for example- oh, that goes back ages. In the 1800s, ministers were preaching that it was sinful, sinful, for people to exchange gifts at Christmas time, and decrying the commercialization of Christmas. In the 19th Century (I'm glad America ignored that one- I love giving people gifts). If, for any reason, it seems like more attention is paid to Christianists than Islamists here in America, it's because, honestly, we have more Christianists doing violent things here than Islamists (note, I say HERE. Islamists are absolutely tearing many other parts of the world apart... grrrr....). Probably because more Moslems here tend to be Asian Moslem, or converted Moslem, and they tend not to be poor- poverty seems to go a long way towards breeding radicalism. I read once that terrorism is the angry cry of the dispossessed, and while I think that's simplistic, I think it is easier to make a poor man strap on a bomb than a rich man- the rich will fund it, but they won't do it themselves.

I just read a review in Salon of a book written by a Wall Street Journal writer about American Islam- I think I'll have to pick it up. Here's the review- doesn't the book sound interesting?

http://salon.com/books/review/2007/01/15/muslims/

In the end, I say three cheers for the secular nation, that allows all its citizens to practice their faith as they see fit. Hey, if we really HAD been founded as a devout Christian nation- meaning, if the most devout Puritans had gotten to run things, Danzig and I would be in burkas right now-- those Puritans also believed in covering women head to toe. And I HATE wearing skirts under the best of circumstances...[/QUOTE]


well, yeah...that's if i survived the stonings for missing church. so glad i live where i live!!
but there are people who wish that women would be seen and not heard. just a few months ago a woman was fired from the bible study group she had been teaching for YEARS. cause the bible says....fact is, you can back up pretty much any argument, regardless of what side you take, by quoting the bible.

perfect example--eye for an eye. no, you should turn the other cheek...

[Danzig]

oh, and i hate wearing skirts/dresses as well. so happy i was born in the late 20th century!!
i mean, how do you mow the lawn in a dress?! or cut firewood. or play football....

The lesson of this article for me is very clear: The religious right is villified in this country and other Western democracies simply because, IT CAN BE.

Ask Salman what happens when one is critical of the Islamic faith. The strength of free speech and tolerance lives and thrives in the West, unlike the tyrannic rule of many Middle Eastern Countries that is so fragile, and where criticism and critical thinking is punished.

My take from this article.

I might add to this that the religious right in my fair city comes under one prominent name, John Hagee. This man has no churches set up on the poor sides of this town. His giant monolithic church gets tax free dollars, buys up huge tracks of land and resells them, has a giant television network... He saves rich people from their guilt. He lives in a multimillion dollar house in a place known as the Dominion, where all the movers and shakers in business and sports live in San Antonio. He is driven around in a Rolls Royce... all tax free. His entire family is given a piece of the pie, it is absolutely ridiculous. So next time that toll free 800 number comes up, realize it and the savior that one buys, ends up in wealthy pockets.

So heck yes the religious right needs to be scrutinized.

BTW he was a huge contributor for Bush and advised on certain issues which is totally scary.

[Danzig]

c'mon baba...you can't pick on someone else's post and not give your own views...can you? hell, maybe you can!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

In short, you haven't a clue as to what you're speaking on.

Ergo, "Can someone explain this to me?" Believe it or not, sometimes a question really is a question, Dr. Freud. Care to explain your thoughts on it, rather than toss insults?

(But I still likes ya, 'cause ya likes one of my favorite horses. ; ) )

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

I am sorry, GR. That came across much more harsh than I intended! I blame my dying laptop battery. Seriously, my bad. I'll explain myself further when I have some free time later today.

Stupid dying laptop battery. (Seriously, when mine was going it could put me into a screaming rage-- "But I JUST charged you!") Look forward to hearing your thoughts when you have the time.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I might add to this that the religious right in my fair city comes under one prominent name, John Hagee. This man has no churches set up on the poor sides of this town. His giant monolithic church gets tax free dollars, buys up huge tracks of land and resells them, has a giant television network... He saves rich people from their guilt. He lives in a multimillion dollar house in a place known as the Dominion, where all the movers and shakers in business and sports live in San Antonio. He is driven around in a Rolls Royce... all tax free. His entire family is given a piece of the pie, it is absolutely ridiculous. So next time that toll free 800 number comes up, realize it and the savior that one buys, ends up in wealthy pockets.

So heck yes the religious right needs to be scrutinized.

BTW he was a huge contributor for Bush and advised on certain issues which is totally scary.

Pgardn,
Interesting article about the San Antonio power pastor...http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/46753/

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
Interesting article about the San Antonio power pastor...http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/46753/

DTS: John Hagee is a charlatan at best and deceiver at worst! That, from my frame of reference, is irrefutable! But, in my wildest dreams, I wouldn't believe for a moment this man has any influence over Bush. He runs a "bully pulpit" and the bile rises up in my throat when I see his ilk! But,in another context, he is no different than George Soros in throwing around power and trying to influence events. This is in reference to Pgardns statement that the religious right has to be scrutinized. Does Soros get a free ride because his faith is not declared? Just something to think about.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

DTS: John Hagee is a charlatan at best and deceiver at worst! That, from my frame of reference, is irrefutable! But, in my wildest dreams, I wouldn't believe for a moment this man has any influence over Bush. He runs a "bully pulpit" and the bile rises up in my throat when I see his ilk! But,in another context, he is no different than George Soros in throwing around power and trying to influence events. This is in reference to Pgardns statement that the religious right has to be scrutinized. Does Soros get a free ride because his faith is not declared? Just something to think about.

Timm,
Both very scarey. I don't know, but I'm guessing that Hagee has more ears than Soros.
I'm thinking about "power", and "faith".
You might know much more about this than I do.
Ain't no "free rides"...NONE!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Timm,
Both very scarey. I don't know, but I'm guessing that Hagee has more ears than Soros.
I'm thinking about "power", and "faith".
You might know much more about this than I do.
Ain't no "free rides"...NONE!

Do you seriously think that a church charlatan has more power and influence that a billionaire activist? Come on,buddy, it's not that cold in NY!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Do you seriously think that a church charlatan has more power and influence that a billionaire activist? Come on,buddy, it's not that cold in NY!

Timm,
Are you really serious? Are you "baiting"?
Come on buddy! Tell me about the "church charlatan" that swore a pledge to poverty, served in Hitler's Youth, pissed off the Islamic world.
Soros doesn't compare. You must be spending too much time out in the sun, getting your brain fried with all the heat.
Billionaire activist? LOL!
Nothing compared to the fervent beliefs of the believers.
Come on buddy.
Not too cold to see through the frosty panes.
btw...did you catch the "Frontline" pbs show about the cover-up in the Roman Catholic Church this past week? Astounding!
Soros doesn't compare.
Only truth does, as it always will.
Makes 'em stand naked before the lies.
Shiver, shiver.
Where the heck are the clothes?

[timmgirvan]

The rhetoric is blinding me! Just speak plainly...I gave you my take on Hagee. Whatever your point may be, explanding it to include the Pope is counter productive. George Soros is a megalmaniacal billionaire activist...you DO read papers,right?