Canterbury cutting takeout to lowest in US

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Holybull1

Many people probably don't know about the unusual OTB/ADW rules in Minnesota. Well actually there is no OTB at all because a state amendment vote failed many years back. Thus, MN players are allowed to have ADW accounts but are blocked from betting Canterbury's signal.

So for the most part their best potential customers (MN bettors) must be on track to bet their races. This has improved slightly as you can now bet at Running Aces, the harness track in the northern suburbs.

PA has similar 'track proximity' or 'blackout' rules that prevent players from betting on local ovals within 30 (?) miles..

[Pants II]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Phil..

Please don't perpetuate myths, or lies, here. CD raised takeout in an attempt to maintain their purse structure so as not to lose horses to other jurisdictions. While the decision was simplistic and myopic, it wasn't done just 'because they could'.

It's unbalanced that there is never an acknowledgement in discussions on this topic that they are surrounded by casino-fueled states (IN, OH, PA, WV) and are without the luxury of alternate revenues like KY Downs/Ellis (Instant Racing funding) or Keeneland (Sales Company funding).

And in terms of dollars and cents, their pricing remained rather fair. Their rates on WPS were industry low-ish (16%) and were raised to a middling 17.5%. Their multi horse and and multi rate rake was industry low-ish (19%) and went to a rather typical 22%, lower than NY and CA on most multis.

Steve they didn't want the IRT's and mostly due to elitism. They didn't want the "local" clientele at their pristine facility.

Even though they could've used Louisville Downs.

I've been following the casino push in Kentucky for years. They were incredibly short-sighted in not taking IRT's. Embarrassingly bad decision really. It's like they don't have a clue how the Commonwealth operates.

Once they're put in they're in. Now they're out. Dumb.

[Pants II]

Louisville Downs was the perfect location for IRT's. They had plenty of space and remodeling wouldn't cost them much in their bottom line.

I was baffled at the time they didn't want it. Poplar Level is degenerate central. Would've done well.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Pants II

Steve they didn't want the IRT's and mostly due to elitism. They didn't want the "local" clientele at their pristine facility.

Even though they could've used Louisville Downs.

I've been following the casino push in Kentucky for years. They were incredibly short-sighted in not taking IRT's. Embarrassingly bad decision really. It's like they don't have a clue how the Commonwealth operates.

Once they're put in they're in. Now they're out. Dumb.

Originally Posted by Pants II

Louisville Downs was the perfect location for IRT's. They had plenty of space and remodeling wouldn't cost them much in their bottom line.

I was baffled at the time they didn't want it. Poplar Level is degenerate central. Would've done well.

You're right Coach.. On all counts. They believed that gaming was coming their way. Beshear let everyone down who elected him on the expanded gambling platform.

[Pants II]

Originally Posted by Kasept

You're right Coach.. On all counts. They believed that gaming was coming their way. Beshear let everyone down who elected him on the expanded gambling platform.

They did a biased vet of him and overlooked countless opinions on character. It's been out there for decades.

You have to know your market, your government, etc in that state. It's so bad that I decided to cross the river.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Field size averaged 7.98 horses in 2015.

That factored in the turf races

[ranger5830]

While Churchill does not have alternative gaming/sales subsidies like most of the other Kentucky tracks. they do have something that nobody else has, and that's Oaks/Derby, the absolute cash cow of all of American racing. By my estimate, based on attendance and admission prices, they make $15 million just in admission fees alone over the two days, before anybody even spends a penny inside the gates. I've never been to a derby on track, but I'm sure there are ample opportunities to spend money once inside, and not just at the windows. But that $15 million would be enough to provide $350,000 daily purses for the entire spring meet, and that's if they didn't make any money elsewhere, which obviously they do. I know that's not exactly the way the world works, but I'm saying that they should make enough off those two days to subsidize the rest of the year if the other days are not profitable.

I played Canterbury this weekend and didn't do that well (after all, when you lose the takeout is still 100%) but it looked like competitive racing and I will be back for more.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

That factored in the turf races

Yes.. 9 for turf which was 30% or so of total offering.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Phil..

Please don't perpetuate myths, or lies, here. CD raised takeout in an attempt to maintain their purse structure so as not to lose horses to other jurisdictions. While the decision was simplistic and myopic, it wasn't done just 'because they could'.

It's unbalanced that there is never an acknowledgement in discussions on this topic that they are surrounded by casino-fueled states (IN, OH, PA, WV) and are without the luxury of alternate revenues like KY Downs/Ellis (Instant Racing funding) or Keeneland (Sales Company funding).

And in terms of dollars and cents, their pricing remained rather fair. Their rates on WPS were industry low-ish (16%) and were raised to a middling 17.5%. Their multi horse and and multi rate rake was industry low-ish (19%) and went to a rather typical 22%, lower than NY and CA on most multis.

My opinion and my opinion only, however the below confirms the ability to increase takeout was based solely on the addition of the September meet- (not lies/myths)- diluting the on-track average to below the dividing line set by Kentucky law (clearly to separate CD/KEE from KD/Ellis/Turfway.)

Here's the thing... they can maintain purse levels without doing anything different, but it might have a negative impact on their stock price. Their 'corporate spin' is it's to protect the purse account but in reality that's a pittance relative to their total revenues. They did $1.2 billion in revenue in 2015, their net income was $65.5 million... a 2-3% increase in takeout for just Derby weekend nets them a cool ~$7 million without doing anything, thus increasing their net profits by 10% and theoretically their stock price the same. Their takeout was (and still is) reasonable because the state law says so, not because CHDN is a bunch of great guys.

There's also no reason they can't get Instant Racing set up at Trackside. The religious nuts have given up the fight in Kentucky so there is no potential legal battle looming. In addition, the neighboring states are not really offering similar condition books- Indiana Downs, for example, has raised it's product significantly but currently runs about 50% of their races for Indiana breds and several other low conditioned claiming races a week, which leaves maybe 5-10 crossover races a week- the same dynamic as NYRA versus Parx or Monmouth.

I love Churchill Downs as a venue and wagering option. The takeout difference is not going to prevent me from betting on their product when I like what they're offering. But this is just another misstep by a company more concerned with the bottom line than putting out a great racing product.


http://www.drf.com/news/churchill-do...-takeout-rates


"John Asher, a spokesman for Churchill, said the track’s management raised the takeouts to sustain current purse levels at the track. However, Asher acknowledged that Churchill and its horsemen will split the additional revenue raised by the maneuver under the terms of its existing live-racing contract, which gives horsemen 51 percent of wagering revenue and Churchill 49 percent."

"Churchill would not have been able to legally raise its takeout rates if the track had not held its first-ever September meet last year. Under Kentucky law, tracks with an average live ontrack handle of $1.2 million or more a day cannot charge a takeout higher than 16 percent on straight wagers and 19 percent on exotic wagers. Tracks under the $1.2 million average threshold can charge 17.5 percent and 22 percent.

Asher said the average did not dip below $1.2 million until last year, based entirely on the influence of the 12-day September meet."

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by philcski

My opinion and my opinion only, however the below confirms the ability to increase takeout was based solely on the addition of the September meet- (not lies/myths)- diluting the on-track average to below the dividing line set by Kentucky law (clearly to separate CD/KEE from KD/Ellis/Turfway.)

Here's the thing... they can maintain purse levels without doing anything different, but it might have a negative impact on their stock price. Their 'corporate spin' is it's to protect the purse account but in reality that's a pittance relative to their total revenues. They did $1.2 billion in revenue in 2015, their net income was $65.5 million... a 2-3% increase in takeout for just Derby weekend nets them a cool ~$7 million without doing anything, thus increasing their net profits by 10% and theoretically their stock price the same. Their takeout was (and still is) reasonable because the state law says so, not because CHDN is a bunch of great guys.

There's also no reason they can't get Instant Racing set up at Trackside. The religious nuts have given up the fight in Kentucky so there is no potential legal battle looming. In addition, the neighboring states are not really offering similar condition books- Indiana Downs, for example, has raised it's product significantly but currently runs about 50% of their races for Indiana breds and several other low conditioned claiming races a week, which leaves maybe 5-10 crossover races a week- the same dynamic as NYRA versus Parx or Monmouth.

I love Churchill Downs as a venue and wagering option. The takeout difference is not going to prevent me from betting on their product when I like what they're offering. But this is just another misstep by a company more concerned with the bottom line than putting out a great racing product.

September meet was also a response to need on the circuit due to the inability of Turfway to maintain the season at a level befitting the time of year. As discussed with Coach, they certainly made a tactical error assuming that gaming was coming and didn't want to utilize Instant Racing. (I haven't asked if they'll revisit that.) Regarding the revenue side of things, anyone would expect - demand even - that a publicly traded company attempt to maximize their profit opportunities. Except it seems when it comes to CDI.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Kasept

September meet was also a response to need on the circuit due to the inability of Turfway to maintain the season at a level befitting the time of year. As discussed with Coach, they certainly made a tactical error assuming that gaming was coming and didn't want to utilize Instant Racing. (I haven't asked if they'll revisit that.) Regarding the revenue side of things, anyone would expect - demand even - that a publicly traded company attempt to maximize their profit opportunities. Except it seems when it comes to CDI.

This is true on the September meet, and the expectation a public company attempt to maximize profit. Therein lies the rub- most public companies aren't at the top of an industry with many small businesses relying on their judgement of disbursement with less than stellar contracts binding them and even less than stellar replacement options (as you noted above, the option to run out of state exists but for far less purse money.)

I just don't like the 'corporate spin' put on by CDI all the time like this, claiming "we did it for the horsemen", when in reality it's all about the bottom line.

Is the best model a not-for-profit entity running the race track? I don't know, but two of the top tracks (Keeneland and Saratoga) fall under that approach.

[Holybull1]

Attendance at Canterbury was 11,011 yesterday (Memorial Day). On-track handle was $262,474 ($23/per person). At least they got to see bulldog races!

Off-track handle was $642,000, about double over last year's Memorial Day card. That is very encouraging.

[-BT-]

i've been keeping an eye on them, but that field size has got to improve.

7 starters with 2 scratches won't attract too many into a pool, regardless of the takeout. I hope they get some more horses up there, b/c right now it reminds me of Delaware Park

-bt-

[Pants II]

Originally Posted by -BT-

i've been keeping an eye on them, but that field size has got to improve.

7 starters with 2 scratches won't attract too many into a pool, regardless of the takeout. I hope they get some more horses up there, b/c right now it reminds me of Delaware Park

-bt-

They can have a few days where it's a playable card. They need to start strategically placing the turf races for the late pick 4.

Friday's early pick 4 looks to be a decent play due to the two turf races.

If handle continues to increase a purse increase is to be expected which could lure horses from Ill, Iowa, Texas, Oklahoma, etc.

There's positive signs.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by -BT-

i've been keeping an eye on them, but that field size has got to improve.

7 starters with 2 scratches won't attract too many into a pool, regardless of the takeout. I hope they get some more horses up there, b/c right now it reminds me of Delaware Park

-bt-

Delaware is hit or miss. Wednesday: 6-7-7-9-7-10-8-6; Thursday: 7-10-6-10-10-10-7-10/Arabian

[-BT-]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Delaware is hit or miss. Wednesday: 6-7-7-9-7-10-8-6; Thursday: 7-10-6-10-10-10-7-10/Arabian

i hear ya steve, but for whatever reason, that place usually has a, if not multiple scratches before they go to the gate.

unfortunately canterbury got washed out on saturday, which didn't help. And though i like a good bulldog race, when are they going to stop this QH sh!t to open up the card? like my money doesn't leave my pocket fast enough in a 6F race.

-bt-