Street Sense- should he or shouldn't he?

[Cannon Shell]

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/hor...ory?id=2884765

[Danzig]

i read that this morning, when i was at 'work'. i think he should run, but i've said that all along....it'll be june, and only his fifth race--why not run? only one derby winner, was he supposed to have a walkover in the preakness? i mean, what was the point behind anyone else running, they couldn't win the tc--going by nafzgers logic that is.

What's next?

Asmussen/Lake 2008?

[Cannon Shell]

Not to steal from Drugs style but here is the record of Belmont winners since 2000

2000-Consilidator - never won again
2001-Point Given-Won Haskel and Travers,injured and retired after Travers
2002-Sarava-Never won again
2003-Empire Maker-never won again, 2nd Jim Dandy, injured retired afterwards
2004-Smarty Jones ( know he lost)-retired, never ran again
-Birdstone-won Travers (most underrated training accomplishment in long time) never won again, retired
2005-Afleet Alex-injured, retired
2006-Jazil- never won again (nor will he ever)

I dont believe that any of them even ran in the Breeders Cup as 3 year olds (Maybe Birdstone?)

[King Glorious]

This last paragraph is what was the most ridiculous of the whole article:

They say the horse must come first. Fine. But what do they have to lose by running Street Sense in the Belmont? Nothing. Let him run in the Belmont and then give him his two months off before he returns in the Haskell. This one time, they can put the sport first and the horse a very close second. For Street Sense and the game, do the right thing.

Put the sport first? Over the horse's best interests? Shouldn't the horse ALWAYS come first?

[Danzig]

yeah, king, i don't agree with the last bit...but then, i don't think running him would be bad for street sense--unless of course he's regressed since his most recent starts. but nafzger said 'what's the point?', not the horse needs a break.

you should always do right by the horse--as for cannons list, i don't think they did empire maker any favors running him in the derby, i doubt it helped his foot much. and then the belmont a few weeks later-i don't think that was what was best for him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont believe that any of them even ran in the Breeders Cup as 3 year olds (Maybe Birdstone?)

Birdstone did---I'm pretty sure he finished behind Azeri (who ran 5th) in the Classic that day.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Put the sport first? Over the horse's best interests? Shouldn't the horse ALWAYS come first?

Absolutely. But, if the horse is doing just dandy...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I'm not so sure that I agree that the Belmont Stakes is becoming a race that sets horses back either.

4 of the 7 2nd place finishers in the Belmont Stakes this decade---went on to later capture a Grade 1 race.

In an 11 year span from '89-to-'99---9 of the 11 Belmont Stakes winners would return to later capture a Grade 1 race. The only two who didn't would be Tabasco Cat (2nd in the Breeders Cup Classic) and Go And Go.

If the horse is doing real well---he probably ought to run in the Belmont, as the 2nd choice in the betting (possibly even a razor thin favorite) against a small field---if not, I expect he will take the Haskell-to-Travers-to-Classic route.....with a possible stop in a stake at the Meadowlands or the Jockey Club Gold Cup in between the Travers and Classic.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Absolutely. But, if the horse is doing just dandy...

But even if the horse is doing just fine, I think that Nafzger has earned the right to know better for the horse than any of us. A lot of people criticized his plan to use only two preps. But he knew his horse. If he thinks the horse would be better served with a break now to point for the fall races, again, I think Nafzger has earned that right. There are plenty of other guys that have come along recently and been flashes in the pan and haven't earned that right to be unquestioned. I believe Nafzger has though.

The thing is that the Belmont is a mighty demanding race. In addition to the recent winners that Cannon listed, we could go even deeper. Look at horses that have run in all three TC races over the past 10 years. The list of horses that have won at least one TC race while running in all three over the past 10 years is:

Silver Charm
Real Quiet
Victory Gallop
Charismatic
Monarchos
Point Given
War Emblem
Funny Cide
Smarty Jones
Giacomo
Afleet Alex

That's 11 horses. Eight of the 11 didn't finish the year. This is a fact. Seven of those eight didn't run past the Belmont. This is a fact. As a group, the 11 horses went on to win a total of three races as 3yo's post TC. I've acknowledged in past posts that I understand that some of it was due to factors besides injury. And I do recognize that five of those horses did come back in later years and win some really good races. But recent history is not on the side of seeing either Curlin or Street Sense or Hard Spun do anything more this year should they run back in the Belmont. Only three of those on the list made it to the BC (Victory Gallop, War Emblem and Funny Cide).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

KG,

I remember you taking a stand saying they shouldn't run Curlin in the Preakness and should have instead pointed for a Haskell/Travers campaign.

I think you are really underestimating how hard it is to pass on running in a triple crown series race---when you have a colt who actually has a shot of winning---and said horse is sound and training ok.

[Danzig]

[quote=King Glorious]

Silver Charm
Real Quiet
Victory Gallop
Charismatic
Monarchos
Point Given
War Emblem
Funny Cide
Smarty Jones
Giacomo
Afleet Alex

QUOTE]

i don't think the top three fit, they all went on to do more after the tc.
charismatic broke down, monarchos is one you could say failed to withstand the rigors. point given was a victim of $$ more than anything, had he not suffered an injury (which baffert blamed on the saratoga surface, not the tc) which would keep him from the bc--well, obviously he'd have been there--and obviously he was never going to run at four. war emblem imo didn't have the demand here from breeders, and only an offer from japan kept him from a four year old campaign. funny cide wasn't much pre-derby, i'm not surprised he hasn't done much since. smarty and alex are like point givens to me--the threat of a possible loss if they were brought back is what led to them not running again post-belmont. and giacomo--well, see funny cide above.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not to steal from Drugs style but here is the record of Belmont winners since 2000

2000-Consilidator - never won again

By the way---are you implying that my style is to be historically inaccurate? Perhaps fallout for confusing Smart Strike with Langfuhr?

Commendable was the fine Lukas trained animal who won the 2000 Belmont Stakes...his only other lifetime win was a maiden race at age 2.

Consolidator won the San Felipe Stakes by open lengths in stakes record time, the great Giacomo ran 2nd---I don't think he was ever the same after that....speaking of Consolidator of course.....hopefully CJ doesn't make a cameo in this thread and tell us about how he had him that day.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

By the way---are you implying that my style is to be historically inaccurate? Perhaps fallout for confusing Smart Strike with Langfuhr?

Commendable was the fine Lukas trained animal who won the 2000 Belmont Stakes...his only other lifetime win was a maiden race at age 2.

Consolidator won the San Felipe Stakes by open lengths in stakes record time, the great Giacomo ran 2nd---I don't think he was ever the same after that....speaking of Consolidator of course.....hopefully CJ doesn't make a cameo in this thread and tell us about how he had him that day.

wow, arent we ms. perfect today! what's with the old lady busy body personality today, correcting everyone on silly and understandable mistakes?

you'd make a fine character on murder she wrote!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Murder She Wrote is probably somehow based on my life.

I always caught the last four or five minutes of that show when I was a kid---waiting for the start of WWF Wrestling on USA.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Murder She Wrote is probably somehow based on my life.

I always caught the last four or five minutes of that show when I was a kid---waiting for the start of WWF Wrestling on USA.

you always told me in the past that it was one of those horse racing episodes of murder she wrote that first got you interested in the game.

somehow i think you've seen more than 4-5 minutes of each episode.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I hope you are joking....

I come from a family of degenerate bettors and REALLY BAD horse trainers.....

I don't think Murder She Wrote ever had anything to do with my involvement in racing....

Though...I may have told you that once or twice for kicks.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

By the way---are you implying that my style is to be historically inaccurate? Perhaps fallout for confusing Smart Strike with Langfuhr?

Commendable was the fine Lukas trained animal who won the 2000 Belmont Stakes...his only other lifetime win was a maiden race at age 2.

Consolidator won the San Felipe Stakes by open lengths in stakes record time, the great Giacomo ran 2nd---I don't think he was ever the same after that....speaking of Consolidator of course.....hopefully CJ doesn't make a cameo in this thread and tell us about how he had him that day.

Of course you are right....I have Consolidator on my mind.

I didn't want you to think I was trying to infringe on your style

[AeWingnut]

Nafzger has his sights set on the BC Classic. A horse that wins the BC Juvenile/ KY Derby and the BC Classic could be approaching legend.
Where a horse that runs in a now meaningless Belmont and never going to run 12f on the dirt EVER again... gets nothing but "if only he had won the Preakness"

he didn't so now the race is going to be replaced by NBC with Tennis or something else worthless...

btw..

Commendable was probably the worst Belmont winner I can remember.
couldn't wait to toss him in his next start.

He's in Korea not sure why but he's in South Korea

[sumitas]

i don't know the detals but i'd be tempted to skip the Belmont with SS.