Belmont Entries for 5/29.... Very Poor

[jms62]

Originally Posted by philcski

1000% agree with this...

('bettable' has two 't's' though)

Ditto. This whole debate is like ground hog day.

1. We (the consumer) complain.
2. We get blasted and hear a hundred excuses (many are valid)
3. No thinking out of the box to change things by management.
4. The whole cycle starts again.

If MP is a one hit wonder so be it, at least we enjoy this year.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by jms62

Ditto. This whole debate is like ground hog day.

1. We (the consumer) complain.
2. We get blasted and hear a hundred excuses (many are valid)
3. No thinking out of the box to change things by management.
4. The whole cycle starts again.

If MP is a one hit wonder so be it, at least we enjoy this year.

I'll preface my comments by saying that the NYRA racing office isn't perfect, but to state that they have not "changed things" just plain ignores reality. All you would have to do is compare the condition book in NY today to the one that was used when Mike Lakow was the racing secretary. There is far more variety from a condition perspective (I do believe that TFM is correct on the lack of diversity in distances, but that may be the fault of horsemen as much as it is the racing office). For better or worse, and some would say for the worse, this has allowed horses to remain competitive here (albeit in relatively cheap races) longer than they would have in the past. For example, when Lakow was the racing secretary, if you have a 4YO break its maiden for a tag, there was no place for that horse to run in NY after the maiden win.

I do think they have overdone it with the conditioned claimers; an unintended consequence is that it has gutted what used to be (attractive) claiming races restricted to 3YOs, but the problems invariably stem from the political issues here in NY. When the money is there and guys have to run (as it was in Saratoga 2-3 years ago), everyone proclaimed the racing office as genuises. In reality, they benefited from circumstances then; harmed by circumstances now, they aren't idiots either.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Isn't this partly a function of the racing calendar? If a trainer in KY wants to test a 2YO in major venue, it has to get that 2YO ready early, or wait until Keeneland opens in October. More and more, NY trainers wait until Saratoga to unveil their babies.

Everyone seems to long for the "good old days," but 20 years ago, a track like Churchill Downs had really poor racing with allowance races going for half the purse that a race in NY went for. It was not until purses were significantly increased in the mid-1990s that Churchill and Keeneland really took off and started to have an impact upon NYRA's horse population. Delaware and Philadelphia didn't have comparable purses, and places like Mountaineer and Charles Town ran nothing but $2500 claimers.

The other aspect that has not been discussed here is the impact that another recent phenomonem, the mega-stables, are having upon the game. It's tough to get an allowance race to go with a large field when the horses eligible for the condition reside in only a handful of stables. Maybe the uncoupled entry rule will help, but I doubt it. I know it's a pipe dream nowadays, but racing would be far better off if no trainer had more than 40 horses. (As an aside, think about how remarkable Woody Stephens' Belmont record is given the size of his barn in the 1980s versus what Pletcher gets today.) The Pletchers of the world rarely turn down a horse, and if a horse can't excel at Belmont, they ship it to tracks like Delaware and Arlington so they can keep their win percentage up and not have to tell the owner that the horse is not MSW-worthy.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

It's not just that they're running a lot of maiden races or the same horses seem to be running all the time. It's more about the lack of quality in these maiden fields. By this I mean, for the most part, that there are some very bad horses running. I bet a lot of cheap tracks (relatively) so it's not about quality for me. What it's about is whether there are horses in a given race that have ABILITY. Too often at NYRA, presently, these maiden fields resemble the maiden fields of the AQU INNER --- there's no form to go by (other than NUMBERS --- for horses that are getting gapped.) It's about competition within races not about field size or quality of field.

Most of the races presently at NYRA are just not betable.

I don't ever recall a BEL meeting where they used so many "extras" to fill cards. It appears that unlike other seasons they are relying on trainers like Randi Persaud, Mike Miceli, Naipaul Chatterpaul and Heriberto Cedano to complete the day's cards. Looking at the "Index to Trainers" in the DRF today, I see more typical AQU INR trainers than Belmont trainers, even in the grass races.

[Cannon Shell]

The racing landscape has changed both nationally and on the East coast, mostly due to the influx of slot money which turned morbid, D level tracks like Delaware and Philadelphia Park into B level tracks. 25 years ago NYRA clearly was not only the top racing circuit but the biggest purses and strongest stakes program as well. IMO the tracks in 1985 were ranked approximately like this in terms of strength of horses and purse levels:

A. Belmont/Saratoga
B. Aqueduct
C. Monmouth/Laurel/Pimlico
C-.Garden State
D. Philly/Delaware/Suffolk/Atlantic City
E. Penn National/Charlestown

There was no Presque Isle or Colonial
Arlington Park and Chuchill Downs were C level tracks with virtually no crossover of horseman with the East Coast Tracks. LA tracks were D level except for the FG which was an C level. Southern CA racing was very strong but outside of Lukas there was almost no crossover in trainers or horses.

The mid Atlantic tracks ran turf sprints but virtually no one else did. NY breds had a complimentary role in the makeup of cards. In NY there was a clearly defined structure of claiming horses from 14000 up to 100000 claimers with 20/35/50/75 in between and no conditional claimers. Guys regularly ran horses back in 2 weeks. There were very few trainers that had divisions at more than one track. Off season training at Saratoga was fairly limited. Statebred programs outside of NY had very little to offer.

Think about how this has all changed.

As the lower ranked tracks purse structures were strengthened, the allure of racing in NY waned. As those other tracks rose in stature, NYRA was forced to adapt some of the cheaper conditions that those other tracks were offering. 25 years ago you may not have shipped a $30000 nw2 lifetime horse to Philly after breaking your maiden because the purse there was simply not attractive enough to risk the wrath of Lenny Hale. You simply found your level at the NYRA track against open claimers and ran there, usually for a significantly higher purse, even if the competition was stronger. However as the conditioned claiming purses rose, the crap was worth taking.

Then add in the "super trainer" factor where the concentration of horsepower has funneled virtually all the best bred horses to a handful of trainers. They now train for owners that would have been considered rivals of sorts, yet now they are all on the "same team" and if another horse in the trainers stable is deemed superior to yours, off to Delaware they go. Of course not all owners fall for this trap but often they are the ones who are a little more attuned to the finances of their stable and see the value in racing at circuits other than NYRA. In a lot of cases they are competing for superior purses against inferior horses often at day rates/vet expenses/etc. far lower than what they pay in NY.

I haven't even factored in the rise of the KY tracks in the 90's which siphoned off many good horses that previously would have been sent to NY.

NYRA has made a lot of missteps over the years in regards to it's racing program. Relaxing the rules regarding the number of horses on the grounds has created the super trainer who has absolutely hurt the overall quality of racing in NY. Adding too many different class levels especially conditioned claiming races. Depending too much on NY breds that often make up the bulk of the card on a lot of days. Way too many turf sprints. But I cant say that the people making the calls on those issues could have envisioned the current scenario now in place. And these things happened over the watch of several different hierarchies as well.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I'll preface my comments by saying that the NYRA racing office isn't perfect, but to state that they have not "changed things" just plain ignores reality. All you would have to do is compare the condition book in NY today to the one that was used when Mike Lakow was the racing secretary. There is far more variety from a condition perspective (I do believe that TFM is correct on the lack of diversity in distances, but that may be the fault of horsemen as much as it is the racing office). For better or worse, and some would say for the worse, this has allowed horses to remain competitive here (albeit in relatively cheap races) longer than they would have in the past. For example, when Lakow was the racing secretary, if you have a 4YO break its maiden for a tag, there was no place for that horse to run in NY after the maiden win.

I do think they have overdone it with the conditioned claimers; an unintended consequence is that it has gutted what used to be (attractive) claiming races restricted to 3YOs, but the problems invariably stem from the political issues here in NY. When the money is there and guys have to run (as it was in Saratoga 2-3 years ago), everyone proclaimed the racing office as genuises. In reality, they benefited from circumstances then; harmed by circumstances now, they aren't idiots either.

Pixie thanks for your well thought out response. Regardless we face a holiday Sat with 3 maiden claimers and that just blows...

[philcski]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I'll preface my comments by saying that the NYRA racing office isn't perfect, but to state that they have not "changed things" just plain ignores reality. All you would have to do is compare the condition book in NY today to the one that was used when Mike Lakow was the racing secretary. There is far more variety from a condition perspective (I do believe that TFM is correct on the lack of diversity in distances, but that may be the fault of horsemen as much as it is the racing office). For better or worse, and some would say for the worse, this has allowed horses to remain competitive here (albeit in relatively cheap races) longer than they would have in the past. For example, when Lakow was the racing secretary, if you have a 4YO break its maiden for a tag, there was no place for that horse to run in NY after the maiden win.

I do think they have overdone it with the conditioned claimers; an unintended consequence is that it has gutted what used to be (attractive) claiming races restricted to 3YOs, but the problems invariably stem from the political issues here in NY. When the money is there and guys have to run (as it was in Saratoga 2-3 years ago), everyone proclaimed the racing office as genuises. In reality, they benefited from circumstances then; harmed by circumstances now, they aren't idiots either.

So what? If you aren't good enough... see ya. This is supposed to be the PREMIER venue. Who says just because you make it through $30K MCL at BEL means you are entitled to run there again? Philadelphia, Delaware, Pimlico, Finger Lakes, Penn National, and even Suffolk would be happy to accept your entry for $20K N2L.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by philcski

So what? If you aren't good enough... see ya. This is supposed to be the PREMIER venue. Who says just because you make it through $30K MCL at BEL means you are entitled to run there again? Philadelphia, Delaware, Pimlico, Finger Lakes, Penn National, and even Suffolk would be happy to accept your entry for $20K N2L.

While I think that there are entirely too many conditioned claimers offered everywhere, Belmont is hardly Premier enough to not offer owners of those types of horses an opportunity to win a winners race in NY. In theory the elimination of those races would increase the quality of horse running in NY. In reality it would lead to more NYB maiden 15 races and a further exodus of horses out of NY.

The fact is that there is already not a whole lot of incentive for an owner of non NYbreds to stable them in NY. Decreasing opportunities at this juncture makes a bad situation worse.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While I think that there are entirely too many conditioned claimers offered everywhere, Belmont is hardly Premier enough to not offer owners of those types of horses an opportunity to win a winners race in NY. In theory the elimination of those races would increase the quality of horse running in NY. In reality it would lead to more NYB maiden 15 races and a further exodus of horses out of NY.

The fact is that there is already not a whole lot of incentive for an owner of non NYbreds to stable them in NY. Decreasing opportunities at this juncture makes a bad situation worse.

That was my theory- but you are probably right.

Sunday's card is really bad. 10 races, 69 entries before scratches (+5 MTO's), biggest field is only 8- and outside of the Kingston (which is really good), the rest of the races are just not good. Very sad.

[Linny]

Cannon is right. It's not like those conditioned claimers would be replaced by high value allowance races. The days of allowance horse running back in 2 weeks are long gone. They are managed like stakes horses and run about every 4-5 weeks, thus those conditions simply don't fill as often.

Even a couple of years ago, horses that broke their maidens in NYB MDCL on the inner went to Finger Lakes as soon as it opened. Now, they are filling cards at Belmont. Even in grass races and "better races" I see alot of horses with extensive winter campaigns.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by HomerS

The "boom" in NY has been going on around 100 years

Long been recognized for putting out a quality product

Think everyone agrees they have seen better days

But not like NY needed Funny Cide to get people betting on their races.

She was talking about the NY Bred program.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The racing landscape has changed both nationally and on the East coast, mostly due to the influx of slot money which turned morbid, D level tracks like Delaware and Philadelphia Park into B level tracks. 25 years ago NYRA clearly was not only the top racing circuit but the biggest purses and strongest stakes program as well. IMO the tracks in 1985 were ranked approximately like this in terms of strength of horses and purse levels:

A. Belmont/Saratoga
B. Aqueduct
C. Monmouth/Laurel/Pimlico
C-.Garden State
D. Philly/Delaware/Suffolk/Atlantic City
E. Penn National/Charlestown

There was no Presque Isle or Colonial
Arlington Park and Chuchill Downs were C level tracks with virtually no crossover of horseman with the East Coast Tracks. LA tracks were D level except for the FG which was an C level. Southern CA racing was very strong but outside of Lukas there was almost no crossover in trainers or horses.

The mid Atlantic tracks ran turf sprints but virtually no one else did. NY breds had a complimentary role in the makeup of cards. In NY there was a clearly defined structure of claiming horses from 14000 up to 100000 claimers with 20/35/50/75 in between and no conditional claimers. Guys regularly ran horses back in 2 weeks. There were very few trainers that had divisions at more than one track. Off season training at Saratoga was fairly limited. Statebred programs outside of NY had very little to offer.

Think about how this has all changed.

As the lower ranked tracks purse structures were strengthened, the allure of racing in NY waned. As those other tracks rose in stature, NYRA was forced to adapt some of the cheaper conditions that those other tracks were offering. 25 years ago you may not have shipped a $30000 nw2 lifetime horse to Philly after breaking your maiden because the purse there was simply not attractive enough to risk the wrath of Lenny Hale. You simply found your level at the NYRA track against open claimers and ran there, usually for a significantly higher purse, even if the competition was stronger. However as the conditioned claiming purses rose, the crap was worth taking.

Then add in the "super trainer" factor where the concentration of horsepower has funneled virtually all the best bred horses to a handful of trainers. They now train for owners that would have been considered rivals of sorts, yet now they are all on the "same team" and if another horse in the trainers stable is deemed superior to yours, off to Delaware they go. Of course not all owners fall for this trap but often they are the ones who are a little more attuned to the finances of their stable and see the value in racing at circuits other than NYRA. In a lot of cases they are competing for superior purses against inferior horses often at day rates/vet expenses/etc. far lower than what they pay in NY.

I haven't even factored in the rise of the KY tracks in the 90's which siphoned off many good horses that previously would have been sent to NY.

NYRA has made a lot of missteps over the years in regards to it's racing program. Relaxing the rules regarding the number of horses on the grounds has created the super trainer who has absolutely hurt the overall quality of racing in NY. Adding too many different class levels especially conditioned claiming races. Depending too much on NY breds that often make up the bulk of the card on a lot of days. Way too many turf sprints. But I cant say that the people making the calls on those issues could have envisioned the current scenario now in place. And these things happened over the watch of several different hierarchies as well.

You can add Woodbine to this list, with the dollar virtually at par, where would you like to race. On today's card at Woodbine you have 2 Mdn Sp Wt races carded with purses at almost 69K, compared to the 37K at Belmont that is a difference of roughly 30K. No brainer I would say...

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by CSC

You can add Woodbine to this list, with the dollar virtually at par, where would you like to race. On today's card at Woodbine you have 2 Mdn Sp Wt races carded with purses at almost 69K, compared to the 37K at Belmont that is a difference of roughly 30K. No brainer I would say...

Full, quality, fields, high purses, and TRAKUS. When NYRA grows up, they might be WO.

[Alan07]

Six scratches in the 1st today at Belmont (5/28)

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Alan07

Six scratches in the 1st today at Belmont (5/28)

All but 1 are MTO's.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Alan07

Six scratches in the 1st today at Belmont (5/28)

I realize Phil handled this....but this really is the apex of buffoonery.

[Gate Dancer]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I realize Phil handled this....but this really is the apex of buffoonery.

Classic comeback BTW...............I think you may have just given me the name of the my first horse if I ever get a chance to own one:

'Apexofbuffoonery'.................I love it!