why does Mike Smith get so much bash on forums?

On forums, so many people like to bash him for his rides. I can understand the disappointment for his rides on Zenyatta, Bodemeister, Paynter, and now Hansen. I don't think people either dislike his riding style or people just forget his prime was back in the 1990's. Even though I wasn't around to judge back in the 90's enough to judge. But in the 2000's I saw his riding style out in my back yard and saw what a great jockey he is. That's why he's in the Hall of Fame.

He's a living legend IMO and went on old YouTube videos and saw how amazing he was/is. The only time I was disappointed in him was with Zenyatta but his ride was 50-50 yesterday I think he had to be in a speed dual with hero of order and he had to have hansen be there.

I have to admit yes he can put in sometimes questionable rides but remember he's put in some amazing rides on Zenyatta, Royal Delta, amazombie, Azeri, and others. Skip away was also good and sky beauty and holly bull, the list goes on.

What am trying to say is just remember how great mike really is and yes mike is at the twilight of his career and his best years are behind him but he's still considered one of the best of all time. Has he peaked? Yes and is he passed his prime? Yes. But these days he chooses to ride quality not quantity. Since he's older.

He's a legend.

[RockHardTen1985]

Best of luck to you.

[letswastemoney]

I have seen "speed duel" spelled as "speed dual" a million times today

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Best of luck to you.

Sharp post.

Originally Posted by handicapperernie

He's a legend.

Why is he a legend? That's a pretty strong word.

Sorry but I'm still not understanding the really horrible ride on Hansen and so cannot be objective right now.

You seem to like talking about jocks. Who else do you consider to have legendary status of those currently riding?

While there are some I do like I can't think of a single one I'd use that word to describe.

[Indian Charlie]

MMSC, Julien LePeaux is legendary.

Legendary retahded.

[reese]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Sharp post.


Why is he a legend? That's a pretty strong word.

Sorry but I'm still not understanding the really horrible ride on Hansen and so cannot be objective right now.

You seem to like talking about jocks. Who else do you consider to have legendary status of those currently riding?

While there are some I do like I can't think of a single one I'd use that word to describe.

Hansen is the problem...not Smith.

Hansen is an "over-hyped" tb.

IF Hansen was really a top horse, he would have been at Sar or Mon for big races. Hansen's connections went to WV thinking "easy money" and no competition. Wrong.

There IS a REASON Smith is in the HOF.

Never ask "gamblers" their "opinion" of a jock after they lose money on a race

[robfla]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

I have seen "speed duel" spelled as "speed dual" a million times today

well there were two horses in the duel, so technically it was a dual duel

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by handicapperernie

On forums, so many people like to bash him for his rides. I can understand the disappointment for his rides on Zenyatta, Bodemeister, Paynter, and now Hansen. I don't think people either dislike his riding style or people just forget his prime was back in the 1990's. Even though I wasn't around to judge back in the 90's enough to judge. But in the 2000's I saw his riding style out in my back yard and saw what a great jockey he is. That's why he's in the Hall of Fame.

He's a living legend IMO and went on old YouTube videos and saw how amazing he was/is. The only time I was disappointed in him was with Zenyatta but his ride was 50-50 yesterday I think he had to be in a speed dual with hero of order and he had to have hansen be there.

I have to admit yes he can put in sometimes questionable rides but remember he's put in some amazing rides on Zenyatta, Royal Delta, amazombie, Azeri, and others. Skip away was also good and sky beauty and holly bull, the list goes on.

What am trying to say is just remember how great mike really is and yes mike is at the twilight of his career and his best years are behind him but he's still considered one of the best of all time. Has he peaked? Yes and is he passed his prime? Yes. But these days he chooses to ride quality not quantity. Since he's older.

He's a legend.

Mike? Is that you??

[10 pnt move up]

It takes a real handicapping genius to come up with the ride that was Hansen's issue last week.

I thought his worst ride all summer was on Royal Delta two weeks ago, yet the horse won so not a peep about it really.

Just heard on the net that mike is going to ride royal delta in the personal ensign over mr commons who will go in on the same day in the del mar mile

[Calzone Lord]

I can never figure out why people care so much about jockeys.

Smith is way overrated at this stage of his career. He's losing triple the takeout over his last several hundred rides.

Junior Alvarado just won 4 stakes races at Saratoga last weekend -- and he didn't even ride in a lot of others like the Whitney and Vanderbilt...but you'll never read anyone write a word about him...because people who waste time with jockeys often know almost nothing about horses and only focus on the handful of fashionable big name jockeys.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Junior Alvarado just won 4 stakes races at Saratoga last weekend -- and he didn't even ride in a lot of others like the Whitney and Vanderbilt...but you'll never read anyone write a word about him...because people who waste time with jockeys often know almost nothing about horses and only focus on the handful of fashionable big name jockeys.

I'm not sure I buy into the hype with him, but I'm very possibly biased because of experiences I've had betting him. . . feels like a poor man's Leparoux--takes horses way too far back a lot of the time, but looks good when things fall in his lap or when he has a horse with enough speed to keep itself close.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Junior Alvarado just won 4 stakes races at Saratoga last weekend -- and he didn't even ride in a lot of others like the Whitney and Vanderbilt...but you'll never read anyone write a word about him...because people who waste time with jockeys often know almost nothing about horses and only focus on the handful of fashionable big name jockeys.

Andy and I were just talking about him on radio.. 'in zone' said BTW. Agent Sellito no dope either lining up mounts beyond the close tie to Mott barn.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Sorry but I'm still not understanding the really horrible ride on Hansen and so cannot be objective right now.

Trainer Gennadi Dorochenko had two horses in the West Va Derby.

One of them was Hero of Order, who won the LA Derby at 109/1 odds pressing a 47.20 pace.

The other was a deep closing plodder named Macho Bull.

Dorochenko instructed his jockey to go to the lead with Hero of Order and his other horse Macho Bull was taken 30 lengths off of the early pace.

Mike Smith threw a hissy fit about it in the TV interview after the race...but he's on an aggressive one way speed horse and that's horse racing.

The guy who rode the smart race was 27% local jockey Deshawn Parker on Bourban Courage. Bourban Courage won his debut going 6 furlongs with a 103 Beyer figure. He faded after pressing the pace going 7 furlongs last time out and he had never been in a 2-turn route before.

Parker took the sprinter Bourban Courage 13 lengths off of the lead early and raced 5th of 9 early. He saved the ground, got the jump on all of the closers, and just missed.

Nakatani got the perfect trip on the winner. He was a clear and uncontested 3rd behind two breakaway speed duelers.

Smith was caught off guard by the aggressive tactics of Eddie Martin -- and he whined about it in the interview and stormed off.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I'm not sure I buy into the hype with him, but I'm very possibly biased because of experiences I've had betting him. . . feels like a poor man's Leparoux--takes horses way too far back a lot of the time, but looks good when things fall in his lap or when he has a horse with enough speed to keep itself close.

There's no hype at all on him.

He was by far the best jockey at Calder several years ago, got no looks at Gulfstream because he lost the bug right before the meet started.

He was by far the best jockey at Arlington Park, but still struggled to get top class mounts.

I think he's an outstanding front-end jockey and judge of pace with front end types...and he also is in the class of Dominguez, Lezcano, and Rosario on closing routers. If you look at his numbers since he's come to NY -- they're extremely impressive like they are everywhere else.

You don't become a fashionable big-name jockey until you start getting a lot of opportunities on top level horses. Everytime a big name mount is open, he's not landing them.

[10 pnt move up]

The pace was moderate to slow in the WV Derby, if anything he should have take the lead much earlier.

[10 pnt move up]

To put into context how poorly Hansen ran

Tapizar who is a solid grade 2/3 type horse on the lead when healthy, kinda similar to Hansen in many ways ran a comparable race just minutes earlier

Tapizar 23 2/5, 46 2/5, 110, 135 2/5
Hansen 24 1/5, 47 1/5, 111 1/5, 136 3/5

The 37/1 shot that was speed balling with Hansen finished fifth.

Maybe Tapizar is just that much better and faster than Hansen? I like it less when a rider takes a confirmed speed horse and tries to rate them, Hansen would have still lost cause he aint that good but I would have rather seen him loose on the lead, maybe Martins horse could have gone Tapizar fractions, I am fairly certain Hansen could have.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by reese

Hansen is the problem...not Smith.

Hansen is an "over-hyped" tb.

IF Hansen was really a top horse, he would have been at Sar or Mon for big races. Hansen's connections went to WV thinking "easy money" and no competition. Wrong.

There IS a REASON Smith is in the HOF.

Never ask "gamblers" their "opinion" of a jock after they lose money on a race

Sure overhyped but still I think he's very good.

Agree with your easy money / no competition line.

I didn't bet a cent on this race, for the record. I failed miserably with everything I played this past weekend and although I'm sure I've blamed whatever jockey for a race I did bet and lose on I'm usually pretty quick to blame myself for bad handicapping first and foremost.

As far as Mr. Smith being in the HOF sorry but that doesn't mean anything to me at this moment. I'm talking about his riding lately in general.

To me he's no legend.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The pace was moderate to slow in the WV Derby, if anything he should have take the lead much earlier.

The pace wasn't 'moderate to slow' -- it was fairly quick and contested.

Bourban Courage, a horse who won his debut wire-to-wire with a 103 Beyer going 6 furlongs, was 13 lengths back after a quarter mile.

La Bernardin, a horse who won his debut wire-to-wire going six furlongs with a 91 Beyer, was 15 lengths back after a quarter mile.

Mountaineer is an oddly configured racetrack and you're comparing fractions at two different distances (8.5f VS 9f)

Tapizar is basically a 4yo version of Hansen. He got a loose lead and Nakatani let him go. Hansen didn't get a loose lead.

As for the raw pace figures of the two races -- they look like this...

Tapizar race: 104 95 93

West Va Derby: 100 90 89


Tapizar is not a slow horse -- he was 3rd by just 1.5 lengths after a half mile behind The Factor and Shackleford in last years Breeders Cup Dirt Mile -- a race that collaposed. The two horses last and next to last early were Caleb's Posse, who won by 4 lengths at 6/1 and Tres Borrachos 3rd at 30/1.

Tapizar and Hansen -- much like Shackleford -- are speed horses that perform much better with uncontested early leads. Tapizar ran faster, but he was loose and didn't have anyone hooping and hollering and going head-to-head with him.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The pace wasn't 'moderate to slow' -- it was fairly quick and contested.

Bourban Courage, a horse who won his debut wire-to-wire with a 103 Beyer going 6 furlongs, was 13 lengths back after a quarter mile.

La Bernardin, a horse who won his debut wire-to-wire going six furlongs with a 91 Beyer, was 15 lengths back after a quarter mile.

Mountaineer is an oddly configured racetrack and you're comparing fractions at two different distances (8.5f VS 9f)

Tapizar is basically a 4yo version of Hansen. He got a loose lead and Nakatani let him go. Hansen didn't get a loose lead.

As for the raw pace figures of the two races -- they look like this...

Tapizar race: 104 95 93

West Va Derby: 100 90 89


Tapizar is not a slow horse -- he was 3rd by just 1.5 lengths after a half mile behind The Factor and Shackleford in last years Breeders Cup Dirt Mile -- a race that collaposed. The two horses last and next to last early were Caleb's Posse, who won by 4 lengths at 6/1 and Tres Borrachos 3rd at 30/1.

Tapizar and Hansen -- much like Shackleford -- are speed horses that perform much better with uncontested early leads. Tapizar ran faster, but he was loose and didn't have anyone hooping and hollering and going head-to-head with him.

my contention is Hansen might have run better running the fractions Tapizar did if it got him loose, and 8.5 to 9.0 just is not the huge distance gap in my mind that you are making it out. He certainly was not done in because he tracked 2wide on that pace.