Top 25 3yo's 1987-2007 - Page 10

King Glorious · #**181** 02-26-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

I know it wasnt your point, but Im pretty sure that he couldnt have gotten that horse out of a jog. He cant get half the horses running now out of a jog, hes a typical California horse who comes East and gets drilled. LITF was different, he went anywhere and dictated the race. He flew in, kicked ass, and flew home.

How do you come to this conclusion about Smokey Stover? He's gone East three times. He did lose in Florida but he did at least beat Fabulous Strike there. He crushed a little race at Monmouth then had the slop thing in the BC. I think the jury is still out as far as how he'd consistently do on fair tracks back east.

Who are these typical California horses you speak of? Obviously, Fog wasn't one of them. What about Pico Central, Taste of Paradise, Black Seventeen, Rags to Riches, Midnight Lute, Indian Blessing, Lion Heart, Roman Ruler, Woke Up Dreamin, Dream of Summer, Azeri, Borrego, Congaree? I think that there are far more instances of California based horses going east and winning than there are of Eastern horses coming west and winning.

The Bid · #**182** 02-26-2008, 05:28 PM

Why, because he lost once as a 3yo Jim

King, Smokey Stover cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Lost In The Fog, or any top sprinter running right now. The jury may still be out, but its not out on him being great its out on him being competitive with his peers

King Glorious · #**183** 02-26-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

Why, because he lost once as a 3yo Jim

King, Smokey Stover cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Lost In The Fog, or any top sprinter running right now. The jury may still be out, but its not out on him being great its out on him being competitive with his peers

I loved Fog. But to be honest with you, I think Smokey Stover has a better style for top level sprinting than Fog did. I think SS is definitely in the conversation with Fabulous Strike, Midnight Lute, and Benny the Bull.

The Bid · #**184** 02-26-2008, 05:40 PM

King...Here is a Top Sprinter pole taken long ago. You have always had a West Coast Bias. I do not fault you for this, as I think you are from California, however it goes without saying those horses arent top shelf sprinters less MNL

You
Surf Cat
Smokey Stover
Midnight Lute
Black Seventeen

Sleepers
Bilo
Bro Lo

LITF didnt need any running style, he was simply faster than everything he ran with. He ran them into the ground while dictating the pace. Im a big believer that if a horse can ever be in front, they need to be there dictating a race

King Glorious · #**185** 02-26-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

King...Here is a Top Sprinter pole taken long ago. You have always had a West Coast Bias. I do not fault you for this, as I think you are from California, however it goes without saying those horses arent top shelf sprinters less MNL

You
Surf Cat
Smokey Stover
Midnight Lute
Black Seventeen

Sleepers
Bilo
Bro Lo

LITF didnt need any running style, he was simply faster than everything he ran with. He ran them into the ground while dictating the pace. Im a big believer that if a horse can ever be in front, they need to be there dictating a race

I do not deny that I think that, in general, when it comes to sprinters, California horses are a tougher and deeper group than their eastern counterparts. If you were to look at the list of horses that I like or think are the best, you would find there is no bias towards or against horses from any part of the country.

ArlJim78 · #**186** 02-26-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

Why, because he lost once as a 3yo Jim

King, Smokey Stover cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Lost In The Fog, or any top sprinter running right now. The jury may still be out, but its not out on him being great its out on him being competitive with his peers

yes, because he was drilled in the BC and in my mind there are questions as to how good a sprinter he actually was. the record looks great, one loss as a three year old, but the only reason he had that record is because he had distance limitations so couldn't stretch out, and for the most part he did not beat anybody. nice horse, but top 25 in last 20 years? not in my book.
he hit a streak of races where he was the controlling speed, thats about it.
what was his big race where he really stamped his quality as a 3yo? remind me who he defeated again.

Indian Charlie · #**187** 02-26-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What about Turkoman? What would you classify him as?

I know he was earlier.....but he would have drowned Lost in the Fog at 7F.

i wanted to bring him up as well, but as you said, earlier crop.

i wish someone would post that fla sprint of his on youtube, including the gallop out.

that was NUTS.

The Bid · #**188** 02-26-2008, 06:07 PM

He was controlling speed in every race he ran because he was an incredible talent.

Kelly's Landing (1.5 million)was a nice horse, Egg Head was going to be a very nice horse, Santana Strings (550k) was a nice horse. He ran against and drilled some very good horses. When he won he didnt outbob horses, he ran them into the ground. He danced every dance as a 3yo, the only race he didnt make was the Malibu because he had cancer. His 2yo season was also incredible, never running a sub 102 figure.

It is impossible to say how good he was, but its safe to say he was a monster and certainly deserves to be on a list of top 3yo.

somerfrost · #**189** 02-26-2008, 06:13 PM

I'll give my list...I include all horses that were three as of 1987 (so all foaled in or after 1984), I can't really separate one season from careers so my list takes into account all lifetime races:
1) Cigar (obviously not based on 3yo season)
2) Personal Ensign
3) Risen Star
4) Tiznow
5) Dubai Millenium
6) Point Given
7) Skip Away
8) Alysheba
9) Miesque
10) Smarty Jones
11) Lammtarra
12) Holy Bull
13) Elusive Pimpernel
14) Sinndar
15) Giant's Causeway
16) Sunday Silence
17) Silver Charm
18) Barbaro
19) Thunder Gulch
20) Silver Charm
21) Easy Goer
22) Ghostzapper
22) Go for Wand
23) Winning Colors
24) AP Indy
25) Charismatic

Danzig · #**190** 02-26-2008, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

i find it amazing that some people can only judge ability by looking at a resume only.

anyone with half an eye could see awesome again was a top colt.

but i thought the question was top 25 three year olds?

smuthg · #**191** 02-26-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

He was controlling speed in every race he ran because he was an incredible talent.

Kelly's Landing (1.5 million)was a nice horse, Egg Head was going to be a very nice horse, Santana Strings (550k) was a nice horse. He ran against and drilled some very good horses. When he won he didnt outbob horses, he ran them into the ground. He danced every dance as a 3yo, the only race he didnt make was the Malibu because he had cancer. His 2yo season was also incredible, never running a sub 102 figure.

It is impossible to say how good he was, but its safe to say he was a monster and certainly deserves to be on a list of top 3yo.

I must agree. I think it was JJ Graci who said on ATRAB the day that LITF died that he had never seen any horse with Fog's ability to break from the gate and be three jumps in front of good horses before they realized what happened. Now, does that make him an all time great? No, but I think to say that he wasn't one of the best 3YO's in the last 25 years is a stretch...

slotdirt · #**192** 02-26-2008, 07:32 PM

Did I just see a somerfrost appearance? Perhaps a Derby angles list is forthcoming soon?

Cajungator26 · #**193** 02-26-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

but i thought the question was top 25 three year olds?

It was... which is why I didn't include him.

somerfrost · #**194** 02-26-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Did I just see a somerfrost appearance? Perhaps a Derby angles list is forthcoming soon?

Perhaps...

Danzig · #**195** 02-26-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

It was... which is why I didn't include him.

i don't think anyone would argue that AA wasn't one hell of a horse (and he's one hell of a sire) but he doesn't fit this particular category.

KirisClown · #**196** 02-26-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I have to jump in this LITF debate here. Personally I think it's kind of silly to put him on the list. While it's not his fault no one ran against him up to the Breeders Cup, winning races over Egg Head doesnt make you great. His 3 year old season was very good. But unfortunately when he faced his best field he faltered. Maybe he was sick, but we'll never know for sure.

I think if he is on the list then Honour and Glory has to be also. He faced much better and actually defeated his elders, in May of his 3 year old season in the Met Mile, shading 1:33 for a mile in the process, while running hard every step of the way. He also had a full campaign running in California, New york, Canada and Kentucky. His record isn't as flashy as LITF's, but there is no doubt in my mind that if he was running in those races that LITF was he would have been undefeated and I think he was a much better horse than LITF.

Well said... to put him in the top 25 of the past 20 years is just plain wrong. Maybe a list based on emotions alone he'd belong, but that's about it...

For anoyone that forgets that 96 Met, it was a heck of a race.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxSntBb0DE

#**197** 02-26-2008, 10:58 PM

This is an interesting discussion certainly but the one thing I dont get is why are some folks so certain that Smarty Jones is overrated? The one horse that I find that looks most similar to him in terms of his career/three yr old season is Majestic Prince.

9 wins out of 10, and failed to win the Belmont.

But in Smarty's case he seems more dominant over his field than Majestic Prince. And, he came very close to winning the TC whereas Majestic Pr. really had no chance from the start. That to me makes his run at the TC even more exciting than MP.

I dunno if MP is in the Hall of Fame (I didnt look at the site) but clearly a close case can be made for him and if so...how can you be so certain that Smary is overrated?

SniperSB23 · #**198** 02-26-2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by easy goer

This is an interesting discussion certainly but the one thing I dont get is why are some folks so certain that Smarty Jones is overrated? The one horse that I find that looks most similar to him in terms of his career/three yr old season is Majestic Prince.

9 wins out of 10, and failed to win the Belmont.

But in Smarty's case he seems more dominant over his field than Majestic Prince. And, he came very close to winning the TC whereas Majestic Pr. really had no chance from the start. That to me makes his run at the TC even more exciting than MP.

I dunno if MP is in the Hall of Fame (I didnt look at the site) but clearly a close case can be made for him and if so...how can you be so certain that Smary is overrated?

Here for starters:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/smartyjones.pdf

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/funnycide.pdf

Draw a line above Funny Cide's Belmont and compare the Beyers for the two to that point. Smarty got a 99 or 100 in the Belmont which is missing. There really isn't much to seperate them now is there? One just happened to run against much better horses and the other had the benefit of retiring right after his peak.

miraja2 · #**199** 02-26-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by easy goer

This is an interesting discussion certainly but the one thing I dont get is why are some folks so certain that Smarty Jones is overrated? The one horse that I find that looks most similar to him in terms of his career/three yr old season is Majestic Prince.

9 wins out of 10, and failed to win the Belmont.

But in Smarty's case he seems more dominant over his field than Majestic Prince. And, he came very close to winning the TC whereas Majestic Pr. really had no chance from the start. That to me makes his run at the TC even more exciting than MP.

I dunno if MP is in the Hall of Fame (I didnt look at the site) but clearly a close case can be made for him and if so...how can you be so certain that Smary is overrated?

He went in the HOF in 1988.

RolloTomasi · #**200** 02-26-2008, 11:12 PM

Top 25 Derby Also-Rans That Didn't Win The Preakness or Belmont:

Gulch- 87
Cryptoclearance- 87
Seeking the Gold- 88
Hawkster- 89
Lost Mountain- 91
Fly So Free- 91
Dr. Devious- 92
Kissin Kris- 93
Holy Bull- 94
Soul of the Matter- 94
Honour and Glory- 96
Skip Away- 96
Old Trieste- 98
Favorite Trick- 98
General Challenge- 99
War Chant- 00
Captain Steve- 00
Startac- 01
Harlan's Holiday- 02
Came Home- 02
Medaglia D'Oro- 02
Ten Most Wanted- 03
Showing Up- 06
Tiago- 07
Any Given Saturday- 07