Top 25 3yo's 1987-2007

[RolloTomasi]

Top 25 Favorite Derby Flops:

Circular Quay- 07
Sinister Minister- 06
Bandini- 05
Bellamy Road- 05
Tapit- 04
Empire Maker- 03
Saarland- 02
Point Given- 01
The Deputy- 00
High Yield- 00
Unbridled's Song- 96
Skip Away- 96
Talkin Man- 95
Holy Bull- 94
Arazi- 92
Technology- 92
Hansel- 91
Mister Frisky- 90
Easy Goer- 89
Houston- 89
Western Playboy- 89
Private Terms- 88
Lively One- 88
Demons Begone- 87
Capote- 87

[blackthroatedwind]

I'll give you a horse that I assume hasn't been mentioned, and probably has no business being on a legitimate list, but was one of the best 3YOs of the last 20 years when sound.......Unbridled's Song.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Top 25 Derby Also-Rans That Didn't Win The Preakness or Belmont:

Gulch- 87
Cryptoclearance- 87
Seeking the Gold- 88
Hawkster- 89
Lost Mountain- 91
Fly So Free- 91
Dr. Devious- 92
Kissin Kris- 93
Holy Bull- 94
Soul of the Matter- 94
Honour and Glory- 96
Skip Away- 96
Old Trieste- 98
Favorite Trick- 98
General Challenge- 99
War Chant- 00
Captain Steve- 00
Startac- 01
Harlan's Holiday- 02
Came Home- 02
Medaglia D'Oro- 02
Ten Most Wanted- 03
Showing Up- 06
Tiago- 07
Any Given Saturday- 07

Lawyer Ron, Artax, Louis Quatorze, Serena's Song, Tabasco Cat, Devil His Due, Corporate Report. None of them could beat out Startac or Kissin Kris in your opinion?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'll give you a horse that I assume hasn't been mentioned, and probably has no business being on a legitimate list, but was one of the best 3YOs of the last 20 years when sound.......Unbridled's Song.

I agree.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'll give you a horse that I assume hasn't been mentioned, and probably has no business being on a legitimate list, but was one of the best 3YOs of the last 20 years when sound.......Unbridled's Song.

It's a real shame he couldnt stay sound... he would have had a huge year in 97 under Zito..

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Great thread! Would like to add my input, but everyone has covered it good in my opinion. Been a trying two days with my mother-in-law very sick in the hospital and near death. This thread is one that draws varied opinions, the type I like. The only thing I would add is; the two best three year old crops within this time frame were 1987 and 2007. I still think, if AP Indy ran in the 1992 Kentucky Derby, he would have won. Thunder Gulch was one of the most forgotten three year old colts and Point Given would have been the best of the last twenty years if.....he would the Derby (naturally) and raced as a four year old.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Arazi was the biggest Derby flop.....hands down, ever!

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Lawyer Ron, Artax, Louis Quatorze, Serena's Song, Tabasco Cat, Devil His Due, Corporate Report. None of them could beat out Startac or Kissin Kris in your opinion?

Didn't you read the title? You can scratch Louis Quatorze and Tabasco Cat right away.

Serena's Song is a filly. I am a misogynist.

Lawyer Ron did what after the TC? 2nd in the Super Derby? Great.

Artax? A distant 2nd to Sea of Secrets in an allowance and a 2nd to Run Man Run in the Malibu? Stellar.

Devil His Due? Chased a NY-bred at Saratoga. A-one.

There was a bunch of good also-rans in '91 (Sea Cadet was in there, too). In my haste, I left off Travers winner Corporate Report.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Draw a line above Funny Cide's Belmont and compare the Beyers for the two to that point. Smarty got a 99 or 100 in the Belmont which is missing. There really isn't much to seperate them now is there? One just happened to run against much better horses and the other had the benefit of retiring right after his peak.

So it's all based on Beyer numbers? I knew I was missing something.

Hey I'll bet I can post the BSF from a 3yr old campaign from a classic winner and you tell me which horse it was:

104-107-112-111-104

WHose that? Sea Hero? The Scoundrel? Dr. Fager? Tudor Minstrel?

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Top 25 Favorite Derby Flops:

You missed Sweet Northern Saint who in the final flash went off the favorite in Barbaro's '06 romp. SNS is still burning people's money at even money odds.

Seriously, that situation does not look like it's going to end pretty.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by easy goer

So it's all based on Beyer numbers? I knew I was missing something.

Don't sell yourself short....you're missing more than that.

Being that most top horses retire early, and never get to meet horses of other generations, there really is no unbiased way to compare them without using speed figures. Since Beyers are the most widespread it is hardly surprising that people use them as the example.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by easy goer

So it's all based on Beyer numbers? I knew I was missing something.

The more you read, the more you will know that almost everything in horse racing depends on Beyer Speed Figures on this board.

They are the Bible here.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Don't sell yourself short....you're missing more than that.

Being that most top horses retire early, and never get to meet horses of other generations, there really is no unbiased way to compare them without using speed figures. Since Beyers are the most widespread it is hardly surprising that people use them as the example.

You know what we ought to do is take the best sets of BSFs from three year olds to determine who really are the top 25. I wonder where Lionheart comes out. Or LITF, or Go for Gin..

[RolloTomasi]

Top 25 Lightning Will Not Strike Twice 3yos:

Honor Grades after Summer Squall
Tiago after Giacomo
Cahill Road after Unbridled
Prince of Thieves after Timber Country
Rebel Alliance after Sunday Silence
Demons Begone before Pine Bluff
Honor Grades before AP Indy
Pleasant Tap before Go For Gin
Hold That Tiger after Editor's Note
Tossofthecoin before Charismatic
Millenium Wind after Charismatic
So Long Birdie after Birdstone
Fast Play after Seeking The Gold
Citidancer before Will's Way
Excavate before Menifee
Bravo Mondo after Hansel
Corker after Strodes Creek
Exetera after Sea Cadet
On Target after Sea Cadet
Defere after Dehere
Pendleton Ridge before Lost Mountain
Exploit after Prized
Whywhywhy before Spellbinder
Spellbinder after Whywhywhy
Jazil before Rags To Riches

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Didn't you read the title? You can scratch Louis Quatorze and Tabasco Cat right away.

Serena's Song is a filly. I am a misogynist.

Lawyer Ron did what after the TC? 2nd in the Super Derby? Great.

Artax? A distant 2nd to Sea of Secrets in an allowance and a 2nd to Run Man Run in the Malibu? Stellar.

Devil His Due? Chased a NY-bred at Saratoga. A-one.

There was a bunch of good also-rans in '91 (Sea Cadet was in there, too). In my haste, I left off Travers winner Corporate Report.

I don't know why I left LQ and Tabasco Cat on there. But let's look at the rest. You obviously are looking at only what the horses did in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. So with that in mind, how do Harlan's Holiday, Cryptoclearance, and Kissin Kris make it but Flower Alley doesn't? Harlan's Holiday won the Penn Derby and Cryptoclearance won the Pegasus. You make not like fillies much but isn't Serena's Song's Haskell against the boys the equal of Kissin Kris' win in the same race? I thought that Nobiz was at least as good as Favorite Trick was.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Top 25 Lightning Will Not Strike Twice 3yos:

Honor Grades after Summer Squall
Tiago after Giacomo
Cahill Road after Unbridled
Prince of Thieves after Timber Country
Rebel Alliance after Sunday Silence
Demons Begone before Pine Bluff
Honor Grades before AP Indy
Pleasant Tap before Go For Gin
Hold That Tiger after Editor's Note
Tossofthecoin before Charismatic
Millenium Wind after Charismatic
So Long Birdie after Birdstone
Fast Play after Seeking The Gold
Citidancer before Will's Way
Excavate before Menifee
Bravo Mondo after Hansel
Corker after Strodes Creek
Exetera after Sea Cadet
On Target after Sea Cadet
Defere after Dehere
Pendleton Ridge before Lost Mountain
Exploit after Prized
Whywhywhy before Spellbinder
Spellbinder after Whywhywhy
Jazil before Rags To Riches

as a kid, for some odd reason i was a huge Corker fan. i had put some money on him through my dad when he first started and broke his maiden. i wonder if he's still alive.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't know why I left LQ and Tabasco Cat on there. But let's look at the rest. You obviously are looking at only what the horses did in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. So with that in mind, how do Harlan's Holiday, Cryptoclearance, and Kissin Kris make it but Flower Alley doesn't? Harlan's Holiday won the Penn Derby and Cryptoclearance won the Pegasus. You make not like fillies much but isn't Serena's Song's Haskell against the boys the equal of Kissin Kris' win in the same race? I thought that Nobiz was at least as good as Favorite Trick was.

I missed Flower Alley, too. I don't really care for Harlan's Holiday either, so he can replace him. Cryptoclearance butted heads with all sorts of good horses in '87 and the Pegasus was still Grade 1 at the time so he stays.

Serena's Song is a filly. She doesn't qualify.

Nobiz Like Shobiz was good for about the last 400 yards of the lowly Jamaica. Other than that, his performances all year were atrocious. He sucks. Favorite Trick won the Jim Dandy. That's huge in my book.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I missed Flower Alley, too. I don't really care for Harlan's Holiday either, so he can replace him. Cryptoclearance butted heads with all sorts of good horses in '87 and the Pegasus was still Grade 1 at the time so he stays.

Serena's Song is a filly. She doesn't qualify.

Nobiz Like Shobiz was good for about the last 400 yards of the lowly Jamaica. Other than that, his performances all year were atrocious. He sucks. Favorite Trick won the Jim Dandy. That's huge in my book.

I think Cryptoclearance was a very good horse and deserves to be on the list. He just came in a really tough year. But if winning a single grade one afterwards gets you on, there are quite a few that I wonder about. Lion Heart won the Haskell. Is the Haskell no longer up to the level of the Dandy? I notice you have Favorite Trick and Fly So Free on there (both Dandy winners) but not Lion Heart and Serena's Song, both Haskell winners. If it seems like I'm questioning your opinions, I'm sorry. I'm not meaning too. I just wondered what were determining factors for you in who does or doesn't make it. For the record, I'd agree with about 80% of your list so we aren't that far off.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think Cryptoclearance was a very good horse and deserves to be on the list. He just came in a really tough year. But if winning a single grade one afterwards gets you on, there are quite a few that I wonder about. Lion Heart won the Haskell. Is the Haskell no longer up to the level of the Dandy? I notice you have Favorite Trick and Fly So Free on there (both Dandy winners) but not Lion Heart and Serena's Song, both Haskell winners. If it seems like I'm questioning your opinions, I'm sorry. I'm not meaning too. I just wondered what were determining factors for you in who does or doesn't make it. For the record, I'd agree with about 80% of your list so we aren't that far off.

Lion Heart was second. I was restricting it to off-the-board horses. Serena's Song was too obvious, so I just tossed cuz she ran against fillies for the most part. Otherwise, I just went year by year and then narrowed it down to 25. I actually thought I had Corporate Report on there, but totally missed Flower Alley.

To be perfectly honest the whole impetus to make that list was to get Lost Mountain's name thrown into this thread. I always hated that horse but it's hard to deny him some recognition when he has the Peter Pan, Dwyer, and Haskell on his post-Derby resume.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't know why I left LQ and Tabasco Cat on there. But let's look at the rest. You obviously are looking at only what the horses did in the remainder of their 3yo seasons. So with that in mind, how do Harlan's Holiday, Cryptoclearance, and Kissin Kris make it but Flower Alley doesn't? Harlan's Holiday won the Penn Derby and Cryptoclearance won the Pegasus. You make not like fillies much but isn't Serena's Song's Haskell against the boys the equal of Kissin Kris' win in the same race? I thought that Nobiz was at least as good as Favorite Trick was.

If we are talking fillies, where is Silverbulletday? She won 8 Graded Stakes as a 3YO. 4 G1's, 2 G2's and 3's.