Top 25 3yo's 1987-2007

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by easy goer

You know what we ought to do is take the best sets of BSFs from three year olds to determine who really are the top 25. I wonder where Lionheart comes out. Or LITF, or Go for Gin..

That may not be as easy as it appears. When the results are tabulated, they may need to 'adjust' the figures.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by smuthg

I must agree. I think it was JJ Graci who said on ATRAB the day that LITF died that he had never seen any horse with Fog's ability to break from the gate and be three jumps in front of good horses before they realized what happened. Now, does that make him an all time great? No, but I think to say that he wasn't one of the best 3YO's in the last 25 years is a stretch...

I guess JJ never saw Groovy

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Here for starters:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/smartyjones.pdf

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/funnycide.pdf

Draw a line above Funny Cide's Belmont and compare the Beyers for the two to that point. Smarty got a 99 or 100 in the Belmont which is missing. There really isn't much to seperate them now is there? One just happened to run against much better horses and the other had the benefit of retiring right after his peak.

OH man...that's my schtick!! I used to get humiliated on the other board for doing this!!

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by easy goer

You know what we ought to do is take the best sets of BSFs from three year olds to determine who really are the top 25. I wonder where Lionheart comes out. Or LITF, or Go for Gin..

Actually, that is the best idea on this thread. I wish I had access to all of them. I think 1987 was the first year they were published so they should all be out there somewhere. They (or other speed figures) are the only fair way to compare horses from different crops.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

OH man...that's my schtick!! I used to get humiliated on the other board for doing this!!

LOL, I originally credited you for it but then I wasn't sure if you'd want me to or not so I deleted it.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

That may not be as easy as it appears. When the results are tabulated, they may need to 'adjust' the figures.

Once again, as Beyer has said, they only adjust figs in an attempt to make them more accurate.

What is your, or any of the previous posters that took silly and ignorant potshots, knowledge of figuremaking? How many years did you make them? At what tracks? Where do you stand on split variants? How do you view pace as it affects final time and do you personally adjust your numbers to take this into account?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I guess JJ never saw Groovy

It's always amazing to me that pass that Groovy and Housebuster get for being brilliant in every other race and then coming up with a loss in the BC while Fog is not given the same pass. Especially since he was dead half a year later. Hell, Groovy flopped not once but TWICE, both times at odds-on.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's always amazing to me that pass that Groovy and Housebuster get for being brilliant in every other race and then coming up with a loss in the BC while Fog is not given the same pass. Especially since he was dead half a year later. Hell, Groovy flopped not once but TWICE, both times at odds-on.

Housebuster was injured in the BC and Groovy didn't " flop " in the manner that Lost in the Fog did. Also, in a mild defense of Groovy, he had the unfortunate " luck " of having the BC run in California in successive years.

How familiar are you with Groovy's entire resume? How about Housebuster's before it was laid out in this thread?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Here for starters:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/smartyjones.pdf

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/funnycide.pdf

Draw a line above Funny Cide's Belmont and compare the Beyers for the two to that point. Smarty got a 99 or 100 in the Belmont which is missing. There really isn't much to seperate them now is there? One just happened to run against much better horses and the other had the benefit of retiring right after his peak.

I've argued for years that the Beyer on the Count Fleet was flat out wrong. They can't necessarily be taken at face value, you know that.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by philcski

I've argued for years that the Beyer on the Count Fleet was flat out wrong. They can't necessarily be taken at face value, you know that.

I've argued for years that the 2004 Kentucky Derby is a complete throw out due to the hurricane like rain that hit Churchill less than an hour before the race. That race can't necessarily be taken at face value, you know that.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I've argued for years that the 2004 Kentucky Derby is a complete throw out due to the hurricane like rain that hit Churchill less than an hour before the race. That race can't necessarily be taken at face value, you know that.

No argument against that, completely agre. Was the equivalent of this year's BC. Still... the two best probably ran 1-2. Maybe Birdstone or the Cliff's Edge gets a piece if it's dry instead of Imperialism, and perhaps the race is a little faster against the clock (which, to be fair, was a pretty fabricated Beyer, as it had to be.)

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

In no particular order (although my favorite is at the top):

Easy Goer
Sunday Silence
Silver Charm
Skip Away
Unbridled
Barbaro
Holy Bull
Alysheba
Victory Gallop
Tabasco Cat
Serena's Song
Tiznow
Thunder Gulch
Winning Colors
Xtra Heat
A.P. Indy
Favorite Trick
Forty Niner
Afleet Alex
Curlin
Point Given
Go for Wand
Summer Squall
Real Quiet
Bellamy Road (I know this one will baffle people, but if this horse had been able to stay sound, I believe he could have been a great one.)

How about Dance Smartly, she would be the only one undefeated as a 3 yr old on the list.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by CSC

How about Dance Smartly, she would be the only one undefeated as a 3 yr old on the list.

I like that inclusion, even if she wasn't necessarily amongst the FASTEST 25. In terms of accomplishments, a Cdn TC, BC Distaff, and 4 other stakes is pretty impressive.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Housebuster was injured in the BC and Groovy didn't " flop " in the manner that Lost in the Fog did. Also, in a mild defense of Groovy, he had the unfortunate " luck " of having the BC run in California in successive years.

How familiar are you with Groovy's entire resume? How about Housebuster's before it was laid out in this thread?

Groovy absolutely did flop bigger IMO. The first year, he failed to hit the board at odds-on in a nine-horse field. The second year, he got outrun to the front again and again, lost at odds-on. That was the deal with him. No lead, no win. I don't get why it's unfortunate luck for Groovy having had to come to CA in successive years but it's not for Fog having to go to NY after flying back and forth across the country 13 times in one year. Groovy, like Fog, was a fringe contender for HOY in 1987 and he lost. I understand that Groovy ran some outstanding races outside of the BC. So did Fog. In fact, because of Groovy going 130+ in back to back races, that makes his flops even bigger.

Housebuster was good. I'm not saying he wasn't. Personally, I thought of him more as a brilliant miler than a brilliant sprinter. I know he lost to Unbridled in Florida in a sprint. He beat Black Tie Affair in the Carter and lost to him in the Commonwealth. What do BTA and Unbridled have in common? They were BC Classic winners and neither would be confused with the top sprinters over the years. He beat Clevor Trevor a couple of times, in the DeFrancis and the Forego. Clevor Trevor was another more known for his exploits at distances beyond 8f. The DeFrancis was a great race for him and showed he was a top class sprinter without a doubt. He beat Safely Kept in that race. I always felt though that the 1990 Met Mile was his best race.

[blackthroatedwind]

Black Tie Affair was third in the BC Sprint.....right?

Groovy ran credibly in the BC Sprint at SA when he was " off the board " but still finished a pretty close 4th. When second the following year he lost to a horse, Very Subtle, who I believe you earlier referred to as a pretty special horse ( I happen to agree with that ). Lost in the Fog got absolutely drowned at Belmont in the BC Sprint in the only time he faced a tough field. Groovy beat the mighty Turkoman, at 7F no less, as a 3YO in the Forego at Saratoga. This was following a campaign so ridiculous that he even raced in the Kentucky Derby a few months earlier.

By your own admittance you didn't follow racing that closely in 1986. Unless you did, and I am mistaken, you might want to find Groovy's lifetime pps before you dissect him too extensively. I don't disagree, necessarily, with you that he was a need the lead type. But I think if you saw all the BS he went through in his storied career you would have, at least, a slightly different opinion of him overall.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by philcski

I like that inclusion, even if she wasn't necessarily amongst the FASTEST 25. In terms of accomplishments, a Cdn TC, BC Distaff, and 4 other stakes is pretty impressive.

Not to mention she raced against the colts 4 times that year including the Molson Million, no doubt if we are to include other fillies as Xtra Heat, Serena's Song, Winning Colors, and Go For Wand on the list, I agree she fits the bill also.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by CSC

Not to mention she raced against the colts 4 times that year including the Molson Million, no doubt if we are to include other fillies as Xtra Heat, Serena's Song, Winning Colors, and Go For Wand on the list, I agree she fits the bill also.

You're right... she should have been included.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What is your, or any of the previous posters that took silly and ignorant potshots, knowledge of figuremaking? How many years did you make them? At what tracks? Where do you stand on split variants? How do you view pace as it affects final time and do you personally adjust your numbers to take this into account?

Not even pedigree snobs can compete with BSF snobs...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by easy goer

Not even pedigree snobs can compete with BSF snobs...

In your sort of desperate attempt to do God knows what you are completely missing the point.

The Beyers are just a reasonable way to compare horses that never had a chance to race against each other for whatever reason. I have no problem if anyone wants to use other speed figures, and surely there are some that others use here, but the Beyers are the most accessable.....and therefore easiest to use for comparison purposes here. That's all. We are just trying to compare horses.

The agenda here is by you to discredit something you don't understand. Nobody here is promoting Beyer figures.

[miraja2]

13 pages and the most obvious horse of all hasn't even been mentioned...




























































lol lol lol