Zenyatta

[Indian Charlie]

Wow, I've got Prudery and The Bid as neighbors.

I'm moving to Greeneland. The country, not the city.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Cannon

For me a great day at the races is anyday I walk in. I could be at Rockingham on a Monday, betting 2500 dollar claimers at Beulah and its still great. Having a horse like Zenyatta is good for the people who aren't gonna show up on Monday, or a regular Saturday. People who have been captivated by the pagentry. Theres a lot more to it than just the horses. Maybe to you since you train them its gotten to a routine where its just the horses and the money. To fans its not horses and money, its story lines, pagentry, and having something to root for. Zenyatta gave them all of that. She was a show for a fairweather fan, she was an avenue to attract young fans, new fans, and whether you root for or against shes a draw and people watch when she ran.

I understand those are both great mares, and I just disagree with your opinion.

Ann

Youll fit right in at Rockingham, let me know when you wanna go. Asthma, arthritis. We have a seat for you

Oh shes by far the best mare to run this year, and shes probably the best mare of all time. I wouldn't count out the horse of the year honors either. She has a legitiment shot to win that award despite her loss.

She was famous based on a winning streak that was basically scripted. The whole premise of fans of a particular horse and pagentry being the answer to what ills the sport is so flawed that I have a hard time believing that people keep repeating it. Attracting the type of fans that refuse to listen to reason, don't know or care about the history of the game and are so focused on a contrived winning streak aren't for the most part smart enough to become fans that matter (the ones who bet, not make signs). The idea that taking a critical look at the mare or being unimpressed by the majority of her races or the competition that she faced is somehow wrong is asinine.

I would love to hear the reasoning on why she is better than Goldikova, Personal Ensign, Ruffian, Zarkava, Makybe Diva, All Along...

If she wins the horse of the year, the game suffers. For the idiot writers are simply saying that not only are they shills and buffoons but that PR and hyperbole now matter more than competition and results on the track. Repole can just retire Uncle Mo now and we can give him horse of the year for next year. Why risk injury or a loss by running???

[The Bid]

I think Personal Ensign, Zarkava, Goldikova, all great racemares. I think Diva, was a very good horse, and I think w/ Ruffian its just impossible to say. I think Zenyatta is better horse than all of those, yes. Based on her accomplishments. Based on beating the best boys of her time period, and missing by a nostril after being visably better than any of the boys on the dirt. Having the modern record for string wins. Her consistancy, durability, failure to ever give a bad effort. I mean Cannon there are a lot of things that make her a great racemare.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think Personal Ensign, Zarkava, Goldikova, all great racemares. I think Diva, was a very good horse, and I think w/ Ruffian its just impossible to say. I think Zenyatta is better horse than all of those, yes. Based on her accomplishments. Based on beating the best boys of her time period, and missing by a nostril after being visably better than any of the boys on the dirt. Having the modern record for string wins. Her consistancy, durability, failure to ever give a bad effort. I mean Cannon there are a lot of things that make her a great racemare.

So Makybe Diva winning three consecutive melbourne Cups doesnt trump a Classic win and a 2nd?

So Goldikova's three consecutive mile wins all over boys and 8 overall victories against males doesnt trump Zenyatta's?

So Personal Ensign basically doing the same thing as Zenyatta (beating males once, winning streak over three years) on a leg with 17 screws in it isn't as good as Zenyatta?

In 1983 All Along won the Arc on October 2. On the 16th she won the gr1 Rothmans by 2. On the 29th she won the Turf Classic by 8. On the 12th she won the DC International by 3. She was voted Horse of the year. Zenyatta hasnt accomplished in her career what that mare accomplished in 7 weeks.

The thing is that the boys Zenyatta beat hardly stack up, she isnt undefeated and she has very few races on her card that were anything other than beating up on weak horses. Her consistency was commendable and a great credit to Sheriffs and the consecutive streak was nice but when you take into consideration the context of accomplishment, there she is just one of many really good mares that have run in recent times.

[The Bid]

Your opinion is just different than mine.


Its impossible to put it into perspective how good Blame really is. He simply didn't run enough. Just when he starts to really show hes not an ordinary horse hes retired, so to say the boys really don't stack up....I think thats assuming Blame was just a very good horse. How can we say when his best season wont be ran?

She proved her merit on the dirt, albeit not winning, but certainly showing she was very capable of winning, and likely the best horse in the world on the dirt. She beat the best horses in the world, the boys, last year. She beat the best girls in the world the year prior. She overcame a horrible start this year and was in a photo with a horse she had no business being in. Just her ability to always fire her best race is great alone, but to do it 19 times in a row, and to beat the best boys in the world. Ill forgive who she faced this year leading up to the breeders cup. When they asked her to run, she laid it down like great ones do.

No the Melbourne Cup 3 times isnt equal to 1 breeders cup classic. Diva was readily beat by Elvstroem, whenever he left Australia he was handed his ass. She was a very nice horse but not in the same breath as these others you mention.

Goldikova, freak, best miler ever, consistantly ran that freak race.

Zarkava, unfortunately while she looked like she was any kind she raced 7 times. I think there has to be some kinda longevity Cannon. Surely a great juvenile.

PE is a no brainer

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Your opinion is just different than mine.


Its impossible to put it into perspective how good Blame really is. He simply didn't run enough. Just when he starts to really show hes not an ordinary horse hes retired, so to say the boys really don't stack up....I think thats assuming Blame was just a very good horse. How can we say when his best season wont be ran?

She proved her merit on the dirt, albeit not winning, but certainly showing she was very capable of winning, and likely the best horse in the world on the dirt. She beat the best horses in the world, the boys, last year. She beat the best girls in the world the year prior. She overcame a horrible start this year and was in a photo with a horse she had no business being in. Just her ability to always fire her best race is great alone, but to do it 19 times in a row, and to beat the best boys in the world. Ill forgive who she faced this year leading up to the breeders cup. When they asked her to run, she laid it down like great ones do.

No the Melbourne Cup 3 times isnt equal to 1 breeders cup classic. Diva was readily beat by Elvstroem, whenever he left Australia he was handed his ass. She was a very nice horse but not in the same breath as these others you mention.

Goldikova, freak, best miler ever, consistantly ran that freak race.

Zarkava, unfortunately while she looked like she was any kind she raced 7 times. I think there has to be some kinda longevity Cannon. Surely a great juvenile.

PE is a no brainer

No my opinion is almost completely based on what actually happened on the track. Much of yours admittedly is based on subjective conjecture like Blame might be better than we think. Last years field that she beat in the Classic was decidely subpar. You are basing your opinion of the horse on a streak and 2 races. I havent even mentioned the fact that almost all of her races were contested on synthetic tracks and racing on those surfaces is far kinder to horses with her style. Again I think she is a very good filly, one of the best. But beating weak fillies, the boys on the poly once and losing a close photo on dirt is not nearly as great as you want to believe. Especially when she competed on a card with a filly that has beat the boys three consecutive BC's.

[gaut10]

Because of my age, (the mid 80's is my furthest recollection of thoroughbred racing on a national stage), I will reference the "great" horses of that era (imo) to draw comparisons. Who was greater? Sunday Silence or Easy Goer? Based on head to head competition it was Sunday Silence. Both had earnings of about $5M and won at the same percentage. Or was Alysheba greater? He earned more $ ($6M) but won at "only" a 50% clip. Initially for me, it was Alysheba b/c of his trip crown bid and his thrilling defeat and win in the classic. Then for the next few years Sunday Silence and Easy Goer hooked up and had me believing they were the "greatest" I saw. NO ONE besides people who are really in the game even remember these horses, and they are widely considered the best of the past 30 years. Certainly, Personal Ensign on 3 legs was a "great" filly winning 13 of 13, but NO ONE remembers her either unless you follow the game. No one remembers Curlin or Ghostzapper (highest Beyer's ever), but they do remember Mine that Bird b/c the avg public doesn't really care about the history of the game...and that's ok b/c those are the same people who think the kentucky derby is the end all be all. Ignorant media perpetuate these misconceptions and are, rightly so, worried more about ratings than substance.

I respect everyone's opinion and right to express it, but I think these hypothetical debates provide no resolution to these issues which really have no right or wrong conclusions.

What is "Greatest" of All Time really mean? For some, it's strictly a numbers game (wins, earnings, awards, etc.) like Stray-Rod. For others, it's a combination of performance, numbers, and the ability to bring others (teammates, the game, etc.) to higher levels (ie...Derek Jeter).

Unfortunately, the games survival depends on the handle and does not discriminate on who it gets the betting dollars from. I saw preps, sluts, hoes, cowboys, lesbians, gays, blacks, whites, asians and hispanics at the windows all day. I was there for both days at CD, and I can honestly say the big mare transcends the sport. CD was electric and the roar of the crowd when he presented her at the 1/8 pole was unlike anything I have ever heard or felt.

For reasons mentioned by Mr. Simon, Z's status as an all time "great" is debatable, but can not be discounted; however, her impact and legacy as a figure transcendent of Sport is unquestionable as I firmly believe those who watched/experienced her will never forget it.

ESPN is like a tabloid magazine show. Another BC Marathon midget fighting reference.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by philcski

You can't seriously believe this, right?

How do you explain the Chilukki (3rd race, 1:30 PM) vs the Dirt Mile (9th race, 5:30 PM), then? Both were run with an honest but reasonable pace, with horses who attended the pace and closers both hitting the board. The projected spread between the races would be about 15 Beyer points, and it ended up being 1.38 seconds... or 14 Beyer points. By your logic, it should have been ~2.5 seconds or 25-30 points. Not really believable.

Newsflash: Trainers make up a lot of bullsh!t.

With equal fractions, you are probably right. But considering they went the half in :44 4/5 in the dirt mile and they went only went :46 2/5 in the other race, there should have been a much bigger difference in the final time had the track been just as fast later in the day. Do you think the dirt mile would have still gone in 1:35 1/5 if they would have gone the half in :46 2/5? There is no way in hell.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

With equal fractions, you are probably right. But considering they went the half in :44 4/5 in the dirt mile and they went only went :46 2/5 in the other race, there should have been a much bigger difference in the final time had the track been just as fast later in the day. Do you think the dirt mile would have still gone in 1:35 1/5 if they would have gone the half in :46 2/5? There is no way in hell.

But the early fractions are the difference in the quality of the horses running.

Looking at the pace comparison between the races, they probably should have been :45 2/5 versus :46 2/5. If they go :45 2/5 in the DM, they still run 1:35 1/5 (and there's a different winner of the race). If they go :46 2/5, it's highly unlikely they go 1:35 1/5, but then again these are G1 males versus G3 females. They are supposed to be running better early fractions.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by philcski

But the early fractions are the difference in the quality of the horses running.

Looking at the pace comparison between the races, they probably should have been :45 2/5 versus :46 2/5. If they go :45 2/5 in the DM, they still run 1:35 1/5 (and there's a different winner of the race). If they go :46 2/5, it's highly unlikely they go 1:35 1/5, but then again these are G1 males versus G3 females. They are supposed to be running better early fractions.

I partially agree but not totally. I would expect the grade I, male milers to run at least a full second faster than Distictive Dixie even if there wasn't much pace in the race. Even if they ran equal early fractions, I would expect the males to run a mimimun of a second faster. I agree that better quality horses usually run faster fractions but not always. I see plenty of grade I races where the fractions are not fast. On the other hand, fast fractions don't always translate to faster times. They usually do, but not always. If the best horses in the race are speed horses, if the fractions are too fast it may slow down the final time. But if the best horses in the race are come-from-behinders then a fast pace will almost always improve the final time.

Anyway, I can't tell you exactly how much the track slowed down over the course of the day. Between the two races we're talking about, it may have been only a tick or two but I think that track does slow down later in the day. Do you disagree that the track slowed down over the course of the day on opening day (Oct 31)?

[slotdirt]

Oh good God. Three Melbourne Cups does not equal one Breeders Cup Classic on pro-ride? Will someone please help the Bid get out of his box?

Getting pwned by Cannon is one thing - happens all the time - but getting pwned by Pedigree Ann? That's the stuff of legend.

[GPK]

I heard Blame won by just a nose to keep from embarrassing Zenyatta. He coulda won by as much as he wanted, but was just trying to be respectful.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by GPK

I heard Blame won by just a nose to keep from embarrassing Zenyatta. He coulda won by as much as he wanted, but was just trying to be respectful.

[ateamstupid]

Chuck is laying a goddamn beatdown in this thread.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Chuck is laying a goddamn beatdown in this thread.

i hope he can do the same to mott, pletcher , rice , dutrow ,etc ,etc on the track joey

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by gales0678

i hope he can do the same to mott, pletcher , rice , dutrow ,etc ,etc on the track joey

In the fantasy world that is this forum, he does.

And, we ALL know, he's a better tripper than trainer.

[ateamstupid]

Nice to hear from tweedle dee and tweedle dum with their usual non sequitur cheap shots.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Nice to hear from tweedle dee and tweedle dum with their usual non sequitur cheap shots.

no cheap shot at all joe , i wish chuck can give'em all a beat down

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Nice to hear from tweedle dee and tweedle dum with their usual non sequitur cheap shots.

The horse lost by a HEAD, Joey. While she lost, she still ran SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than any of her detractors thought she would. Rather than just stating this, which Beyer did in his latest article, some here feel the need to still come after her or anyone who appreciates her performance. This would be, among others, a group that held QR in high regard (even just before the Classic). Or thought that RA would beat Z or, even, that Blind Luck or even, laughably, LAL, were better than Z. Now, this isn't a bunch of know nothings; this is some of the better handicappers around. This typically constitutes STFU in most intelligent circles.

As for Cannon: he's already demonstrated he's clueless when it comes to evaluating races. In other words, his tripping skills are woeful. Now, he might be a better trainer than tripper but the quality of his stock, presently, doesn't support this. (I realize that he's waiting for the call by Darley or Repole.)

I do applaud his recent efforts on this thread however. Clearly, he has an axe to grind. And Z obviously shook his ass up by just missing. In this he had quite a bit of company.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

The horse lost by a HEAD, Joey. While she lost, she still ran SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than any of her detractors thought she would. Rather than just stating this, which Beyer did in his latest article, some here feel the need to still come after her or anyone who appreciates her performance. This would be, among others, a group that held QR in high regard (even just before the Classic). Or thought that RA would beat Z or, even, that Blind Luck or even, laughably, LAL, were better than Z. Now, this isn't a bunch of know nothings; this is some of the better handicappers around. This typically constitutes STFU in most intelligent circles.

As for Cannon: he's already demonstrated he's clueless when it comes to evaluating races. In other words, his tripping skills are woeful. Now, he might be a better trainer than tripper but the quality of his stock, presently, doesn't support this. (I realize that he's waiting for the call by Darley or Repole.)

I do applaud his recent efforts on this thread however. Clearly, he has an axe to grind. And Z obviously shook his ass up by just missing. In this he had quite a bit of company.

He's the only one making any sense in this thread. And he destroyed The Bid with facts rather than speculation and conjecture, the latter of which is all Zenyatta fans have in terms of her historical significance. And he's not saying anything about trips. So once again, you're grasping at straws.

You're delusional. Everybody appreciated her performance, so nobody's attacking those who do. What people are 'attacking' are the excuses about the trip/home track advantage and the idea that somehow that race stamped her as the greatest female racehorse of all time.