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#281
07-10-2006, 11:03 AM
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We can always hope. 
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#282
07-10-2006, 11:55 AM
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Of course I've looked at it that way. I just completely disagree. I would actually, sincerely, like to engage in a deeper discussion, but I am woefully behind on my workload, so I'll just make a few quick points. One nitpick: Sure, people can choose wherever they want to live. WHETHER they can afford to live wherever they like is another question. I can't afford rent in a lot of cities where I'd like to live. Second: there aren't too many places in the country that aren't prone to one sort of disaster or another, so I question whether anyone can actually be more "prudent" than another. Third: Katrina wasn't exactly your run-of-the-mill disaster. Does it somehow make our government better or more noble if it considers the plight of so many now-homeless individuals and decides not to act because they shoulda bought homeowner's insurance? I could never share your outlook on life. Some people need help more than others, and I personally believe that it is the responsibility of those who've succeeded in society to give back by helping out those who truly struggle. I'm not talking about protecting deadbeats here, although those seem to be the only faces you see when you look at the poor. Your fixation on keeping every last almighty dollar that's rightfully yours is a bit disturbing. You can't take it with you anyway.
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#283
07-10-2006, 11:56 AM
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You are making these gentlemen sound like all they are trying to do is keep money away from the US government... That this is their sole purpose. That is bogus. Again you give out a fact and then dont go any further. You just stop and dont dig any deeper. Very much like your websites. It is really sad that people like you dig deep enough just to skew the real issues and satisfy your beliefs that would never change, even if the evidence changes. Its your choice. Stay handicapped. Borders on zealotry. Very sad indeed.
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#284
07-10-2006, 11:56 AM
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Like I said, Gates Sr. *supports* the estate tax, and from what he's said, his son does, too...so I don't really think they were thinking, "Yippee! No estate tax!" when they committed their lives and energy to fighting global poverty. Gates is quitting his company to work on improving global health. Don't hold him up as the poster-boy for fiscal conservatism, because he's not.
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#285
07-10-2006, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pgardn So black families were not as affluent as white families on the whole. We of course know that SOME white families were poorer than black families, but on the whole... why did black families experience more economic hardship compared to white families? And you bypassed the above. You want to give this a try again? Or just drop it like its hot? Better drop it. A question like this, for someone like you, is terribly difficult.
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#286
07-10-2006, 12:04 PM
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Kinda like all the questions about homeless kids I keep raising. No one seems interested in talking about that...
Okay, seriously, I have to go work. Six weeks, 20K words, one loooong summer left to go!
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#287
07-10-2006, 12:10 PM
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Should a government in any way be responsible for helping people to help themselves? Or that should all come privately, or it just does not need to happen at all (people should have no reason to enter any program that will help them to be better equipped to succeed in our society)? Please do tell.
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#288
07-10-2006, 12:14 PM
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#289
07-10-2006, 02:27 PM
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... it's an outrage for the government to confiscate money from Citizen A and hand it over to Citizen B ... for any reason whatsoever. Private voluntary donations are fine and dandy ... government confiscation and allocation isn't.
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#290
07-10-2006, 02:35 PM
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The only point I made is that they've taken actions which prevent the government from confiscating their wealth. I applaud those actions ... but I'd prefer that death taxes be eliminated ... because ... ...if death taxes didn't exist AND Gates and Buffert did the same things with their money ... then we'd know for sure what their motivations were. But the existence of the death tax puts a cloud over all foundations ... and that's a darn shame.
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#291
07-10-2006, 02:37 PM
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Augh! If you really think the move casts doubt on the Gates' position, WHY would the Gateses publically support the estate tax and lobby against our state initiative to repeal it? Make the statement pretty clear to me, unless you're just determined not to see what's going on.
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#292
07-10-2006, 02:40 PM
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It would be much better if death taxes DIDN'T exist ... then talented people like Gates and Bufffet wouldn't have to twist themselves into knots ... and take actions which put their motives into question ... in order to maintain control of their own wealth.
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#293
07-10-2006, 02:46 PM
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They can say they "support" death taxes until the cows come home ... but the fact is ... they've taken actions which completely avoid them. It's like Hillary Clinton voicing her ardent support for public education ... then sending her daughter to the toniest private school. Don't fall for the dekes and the shake-n'-bake ... let the actions provide the proof ... not the hot air.
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#294
07-10-2006, 02:57 PM
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#295
07-10-2006, 03:00 PM
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when is the last time you bought a Racing Form?
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#296
07-10-2006, 03:46 PM
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#297
07-10-2006, 03:49 PM
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Regarding my questions, they're already posted. If they are too complex to figure out, I apologize. Published on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 in the New York Times Dozens of the Wealthy Join to Fight Estate Tax Repeal by David Kay Johnston SEATTLE, Feb. 13 — Some 120 wealthy Americans, including Warren E. Buffett, George Soros and the father of William H. Gates, are urging Congress not to repeal taxes on estates and gifts. President Bush has proposed phasing out those taxes by 2009. But a petition drive being organized here by Mr. Gates's father, William H. Gates Sr., argues that "repealing the estate tax would enrich the heirs of America's millionaires and billionaires while hurting families who struggle to make ends meet." The billions of dollars in government revenue lost "will inevitably be made up either by increasing taxes on those less able to pay or by cutting Social Security, Medicare, environmental protection and many other government programs so important to our nation's continued well-being," the petition says. In addition to the loss of government revenue, the petition says, repeal would harm charities, to which many of the affluent make contributions as a way of reducing the size of their estates. "The estate tax," it says, "exerts a powerful and positive effect on charitable giving. Repeal would have a devastating impact on public charities." Mr. Buffett, the Omaha investor who ranks fourth on the Forbes magazine list of the richest Americans, said in an interview that he had not signed the petition itself because he thought it did not go far enough in defending "the critical role" that he said the estate tax played in promoting economic growth, by helping create a society in which success is based on merit rather than inheritance. Mr. Buffett said repealing the estate tax "would be a terrible mistake," the equivalent of "choosing the 2020 Olympic team by picking the eldest sons of the gold-medal winners in the 2000 Olympics." "We would regard that as absolute folly in terms of athletic competition," he said. "We have come closer to a true meritocracy than anywhere else around the world," he said. "You have mobility so people with talents can be put to the best use. Without the estate tax, you in effect will have an aristocracy of wealth, which means you pass down the ability to command the resources of the nation based on heredity rather than merit." The petition is to appear in an advertisement on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times this Sunday and later in other newspapers. Among those signing it are Mr. Soros, the billionaire financier; the philanthropist David Rockefeller Jr., former chairman of Rockefeller & Company; Steven C. Rockefeller, chairman of the Rockefeller Brothers Foundation; Agnes Gund, a philanthropist whose family owns stakes in many companies, and Ben Cohen, a founder of Ben & Jerry's. Mr. Buffett and the younger Mr. Gates have both said they will give away most of their fortunes in bequests at death. Many of the signers have longtime affiliations with causes that depend heavily on charitable gifts, including bequests, and they are concerned that outright repeal of the estate and gift taxes would lead to a sharp drop in charitable giving. A number of the signers are Democrats, and some have contributed heavily to the Democratic Party. But the elder Mr. Gates said in an interview that the idea for the drive was his own and that the support he had received was nonpartisan. Mr. Gates, like his son, has consistently declined to align himself with either of the political parties, and he said he had never given a moment's thought to the party affiliations of those being enlisted. The petition says that "repeal of the estate tax would be bad for our democracy, our economy and our society," although its backers add that adjustments may be needed to help families passing down farms and small businesses. "Let's fix the estate tax," the petition says, "not repeal it." Estate taxes are assessed on the net worth of an individual at death. There is no tax on the first $675,000, and under current law that exemption is to rise to $1 million by 2006. (Farms and family businesses already enjoy the $1 million exemption.) But amounts above that threshold are taxed at rates that begin at 37 percent and rise to 55 percent, the rate that applies to anything greater than $3 million. The estates of fewer than 48,000 Americans a year — 2 percent of annual deaths — pay the tax. Nearly half the total is paid by the estates of the 4,000 people who die each year leaving $5 million or more. President Bush has made repeal of what he calls the death tax a part of his plan to cut taxes by $1.6 trillion over the next decade. His plan would also repeal the gift tax, which applies to gifts of more than $10,000 a year per recipient, and would permanently exempt from taxation all capital gains held at death. Mr. Bush and Congressional Republicans who support the plan say that estate and gift taxes discourage savings and investment. Repeal, they assert, would increase economic growth by rewarding those who build great fortunes and creating incentives for them to invest more. Mr. Bush says his plan would save those now subject to gift and estate taxes $236 billion over the next decade. Critics of the plan say this estimate of the cost to the Treasury is very low, because it does not take into account what tax experts have described as the new ways that repeal would give the wealthy to avoid income taxes. The elder Mr. Gates, who gained affluence as a prominent Seattle lawyer, said he had not asked his son, the chairman of the Microsoft Corporation, to sign the petition. "My son is sympathetic," he said, "but he wants to stay focused on three things: his family, Microsoft and world health," which is the main interest of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The elder Mr. Gates said the money that Mr. Bush wanted to devote to repeal of the estate and gift taxes could be put to better use "to reduce other taxes, which affect the other end of the economic spectrum." "Ever since I heard that somebody was trying to repeal the estate tax, I have been angry," Mr. Gates said, adding that if it were not for his full-time job, he would organize a group called Millionaires for the Estate Tax. Mr. Gates is president of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which has an endowment of $20 billion. Mr. Gates is working on the drive with United for a Fair Economy, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization in Boston that wants to narrow the gap between rich and poor. The petition on the estate tax is being circulated among Americans with enough money that they are affected by it, and a spokesman for the Boston group, Chuck Collins, said that of more than 120 such people asked to sign, only four had declined. He would not identify them. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company
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#298
07-10-2006, 04:00 PM
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Here is Bold Brooklyn's problem with Gates and Buffet....
He just cannot stand the fact that two of the world's greatest capitalists are not card carrying members of the most extreme right wing. He purports to deign what they are thinking and cannot take at face value their charitable endeavors. He must twist their actions in order to do one of two things... 1. Explain how they are tax avoiders which in turn he twists into an off-tangent discussion of the estate tax, or, 2. He finds justification for himself admring these men. Nothing else. At least until he finds the next snappy quote from Sowell or Bill Bennett.
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#299
07-10-2006, 04:31 PM
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Irish,
Just between you and me...but don't be surprised if he responds... it's very frustrating when clearly spoken words are twisted to fit a right wing agenda. At points on this thread, he's given himself credit for outstanding debating skills... yeah! right. His racism has shown up numeorous times (see "sports bar") and earlier questions by S2S regarding Palistinians. You might wish to continue to diologue with him, but I don't think any amount of wisdom will disspell ingrained ulrta-conservative delusions. Very frustrating if you try. Have at it if you think you can get intelligent thoughts into a cabbage. "Hey doc, my head hurts when I keep bashing it into this concrete wall". Doc: "So stop bashing your head into a concrete wall." ---Henny Youngman
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#300
07-10-2006, 05:10 PM
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But I *do* like bashing my head into concrete walls (or kicking them)...
 Point well taken. The thread has probably stopped being productive for all involved anyway, so time to move on.
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