Let's go Yankees

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Gander

The difference is the Yankees are so good they can absorb a Texeria hitting slump and nobody is better in the field than Tex. The Phillies cant win without production from Howard. They arent that deep.

they are as deep as anyone in offense. Not in pitching.

Rollins, Vicotorino, Utley, Howard, Werth, Ibanez, Ruiz is as deep as it gets.

The problem is that only Utley, Werth and Ruiz stepped up. Got nothing from Rollins, Victorino, Ibanez and Howard. Of course Howard will get the most made out of this but if we get production from the other 3 and not howard we would have been fine. Its not like the Yanks were in shutdown mode.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

they are as deep as anyone in offense. Not in pitching.

Rollins, Vicotorino, Utley, Howard, Werth, Ibanez, Ruiz is as deep as it gets.

The problem is that only Utley, Werth and Ruiz stepped up. Got nothing from Rollins, Victorino, Ibanez and Howard. Of course Howard will get the most made out of this but if we get production from the other 3 and not howard we would have been fine. Its not like the Yanks were in shutdown mode.

From what I saw this postseason, the Yankees didnt play all that well. They played to the level of their competition which outside of the Phillies, doesnt say a whole lot! I think the Phillies shot their load in the NL playoffs and outside of a few guys like Utley and Werth, had little left for the stretch drive. The Phillies were a very good team, a lot better than that sad sack of players I root for who quit on their fans.

[gales0678]

from what i see the phillies better get their pitching right next year, the braves and marlins are young hungary teams in the nl east on the upswing

[MaTH716]

Torre was an idiot to bat A-Rod 8th. I can't believe people can honestly suggest that Howard should have been benched. Maybe Manuel could have flipped him and Werth, but to suggest that Howard should have been benched is moronic.
With the exception of Utley, Ruiz and Werth the offense floundered, period. Just like the Yanks a couple of years ago, when nobody hit and A-Rod took the blame for everything. Captain America hit into about 5 dp's but it was all about A-rod futility. I guess that's what Howard is dealing with now. Come to think of it, I'm not sure how many situations Howard was in, that he left men on base. I really don't think it was a ton (I could be wrong, but they averaged leaving about 6 men on base per game).
Also, even if you did bench Howard, who would play at first Greg Dobbs? Come On, it's all crazy talk. It's almost like all the Lidge talk, who else do they have to put in? If you are a Phillies fan, it's just unfortunate that Howard had a tough series. But most of the other guys didn't pick up the slack. The opposite could be said about some of the Yanks picking up Texieria.
But if you really think about it, the Yanks were ripe to be knocked off. Decent starting pitching (Burnett was the only lights out performance). CC and Petitte were good but not over powering. Leaky bullpen before Mo. And a lineup that got nothing offensively from their 3 hitter, plus a group at the bottom that collectively batted aroun .188. But their pitchers made pitches when needed and a couple of guys got key hits when needed.
They were definitely there to be had by a very comparable team.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Gander

From what I saw this postseason, the Yankees didnt play all that well. They played to the level of their competition which outside of the Phillies, doesnt say a whole lot! I think the Phillies shot their load in the NL playoffs and outside of a few guys like Utley and Werth, had little left for the stretch drive. The Phillies were a very good team, a lot better than that sad sack of players I root for who quit on their fans.

Phils have a deep line-up.. they were hot and won quick against the dodgers. I wonder if the 6 day wait between nlds and ws really affected them. No excuses but when your hot it would suck to sit for a week.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Phils have a deep line-up.. they were hot and won quick against the dodgers. I wonder if the 6 day wait between nlds and ws really affected them. No excuses but when your hot it would suck to sit for a week.

sitting is never good in basball , but, blame bud selig and fox for this one

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by gales0678

from what i see the phillies better get their pitching right next year, the braves and marlins are young hungary teams in the nl east on the upswing

we need hamels to really work out the off season. If we can get 2008 Hamels back then we will be fine.

Blanton, Happ, Cliff and a 2008 Hamels is a great staff. They are really high on this Drabek kid and he may take Pedro's spot. Hire Jamie Moyer as the pitching coach. If Drabeck can have a Happ like year we will be in a very good position. It really boils down to which Cole Hamels shows up.

They REALLY need a better closer and a deeper bullpen and some right handed bats off the bench.. also a guy who can play some infield and give rollins/utley breaks.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Phils have a deep line-up.. they were hot and won quick against the dodgers. I wonder if the 6 day wait between nlds and ws really affected them. No excuses but when your hot it would suck to sit for a week.

Didnt seem to affect them in the first game of the WS. So there goes that theory.

[MaTH716]

Oh yeah, the Yanks Table setters of Jeter and Damon did their jobs of getting on for the 3,4,5 hitters versus Rollins and Victorino not getting/being on for Utley (especially the 4 out of 5 dingers). Who knows maybe they have to pitch to Howard differently if there are men on base.

[Antitrust32]

Math, you are right about we have noone to replace Lidge.. the only option type stuff. I still would not have put him out there. i'd put like 5 guys out of our bullpen out there besides Lidge.

He was are only option.. but he has such and awful year.. really really bad. 11 blown save, 7.5+ ERA, like 6 losses. Absolutely pathetic and its a statement to the rest of the team even winning the NL east with Lidge doing everything to prevent that.

We had no other option but everyone in Philly knew it was doomsday when he went out there.

No way will I blame Howard. He carried us to the WS. The Lidge thing makes a lot more sense though... to me at least.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Gander

Didnt seem to affect them in the first game of the WS. So there goes that theory.

not necessarily. And I was talking more about Howard. He was the hottest of them all throughout the first two rounds.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Math, you are right about we have noone to replace Lidge.. the only option type stuff. I still would not have put him out there. i'd put like 5 guys out of our bullpen out there besides Lidge.

He was are only option.. but he has such and awful year.. really really bad. 11 blown save, 7.5+ ERA, like 6 losses. Absolutely pathetic and its a statement to the rest of the team even winning the NL east with Lidge doing everything to prevent that.

We had no other option but everyone in Philly knew it was doomsday when he went out there.

No way will I blame Howard. He carried us to the WS. The Lidge thing makes a lot more sense though... to me at least.

if you want to blame lidge and say you might have won if not for him , i'm sure there are rockies fans that have every right to say the same thing about street and how if he performed they might have won too

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Math, you are right about we have noone to replace Lidge.. the only option type stuff. I still would not have put him out there. i'd put like 5 guys out of our bullpen out there besides Lidge.

He was are only option.. but he has such and awful year.. really really bad. 11 blown save, 7.5+ ERA, like 6 losses. Absolutely pathetic and its a statement to the rest of the team even winning the NL east with Lidge doing everything to prevent that.

We had no other option but everyone in Philly knew it was doomsday when he went out there.
No way will I blame Howard. He carried us to the WS. The Lidge thing makes a lot more sense though... to me at least.

Charlie Manuel/Ruben Amaro should shoulder some blame there. There was an obvious issue and they didn't address it. They just hoped that he would recapture his form from last year. But it's very tough to call an audible once you reach the playoffs, you can't be tinkering with things there. They fixed the rotation and basically stole Cliff Lee, maybe Amaro should have traded one more chip and acquire another 8th inning/possible closer type. But with all that being said, the Phiilies din't lose the World Series cause of Brad Lidge.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by gales0678

if you want to blame lidge and say you might have won if not for him , i'm sure there are rockies fans that have every right to say the same thing about street and how if he performed they might have won too

sure if they want to say that i really dont give a rats ass.

But if you want to ignore the differences between one of the BEST closers of the year (street) and the absolute worst closer of the year (Lidge) than that is your choice. I doubt the Rockie fans KNEW for certain that Street would blow it. I knew as soon as they showed Lidge in the bullpen.

the WS loss is not totally on Lidge by any means. All he did is perform exactly how we expected him too. Manuel/Hamels/Howard/Ibanez/Shane/Jimmy can split the blame with "Keep the Lights On" Lidge.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Charlie Manuel/Ruben Amaro should shoulder some blame there. There was an obvious issue and they didn't address it. They just hoped that he would recapture his form from last year. But it's very tough to call an audible once you reach the playoffs, you can't be tinkering with things there. They fixed the rotation and basically stole Cliff Lee, maybe Amaro should have traded one more chip and acquire another 8th inning/possible closer type. But with all that being said, the Phiilies din't lose the World Series cause of Brad Lidge.

I agree.. see the post after yours.

It was just especially rough on me knowing what was going to occur.

And yes they needed to just give up on Lidge.. I read Philly.com almost every day this season, and there was article after article about just giving up on Lidge.. Charlie always said "he's our closer.. blah blah blah.. maybe he'll get back the mental part.. blah blah blah". Then Charlie actually benched him the last few weeks.. and Madson did equally as poorly in the 9th spot.

Yes the blame is on Charlie and Amaro for this.. they needed to get Sherill when they were getting Cliff (though Scuds may disagree). Like I said, Lidge just performed the same way he had been all year.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Gander

So if you are Ryan Howard and you know you struggle with lefties, and you know the Yankees have pretty much all lefties, and very good ones at that, you would rather stay in the game and cost your team a chance at the title?
Rather than be a man and let somebody else come in and replace you, somebody that could do better than go 3 for 19, and a total of 1 RBI in the first 5 games?

Ya, this makes sense. Because you are a "franchise player", just stay in on and things will evntually go your way...

And Chuck, I probably watched about half the amount of innings you did so maybe I am not the best person to say that the Yankees were a lot better than the Phillies. But I was actually referring to the talent level and the potential each team had. I saw a lot of the Yankees this year and I dont think they played near to their potential this postseason, yet they still moonwalked through the post season. Yawn, good for the Yankees, glad its over with. I am baseballed out.

Who would they play if Howard sat?

And who on the Yankees outside of Tex didnt hit well in the playoffs? Swisher?

I mean where are the Yankees that much more talented than Philly?
I will give you 3rd. Posada is a better hitter than Ruiz, no doubt. The 2nd and 3rd starters. The closer. OK that is 5 out of 25 guys. Yet utley is clearly a better 2nd baseman and Werth is better than Swisher. So......the fact is that the Yankees won 4 out of 6 more or less because their pitchers better dealt with the Philly line up than vice versa. And when you spend as much in the off season on your top 2 guys, you should.

Baseball is a game meant to be played everyday over a period of time. The way the playoffs are set up clearly favors an old team like NY with a #1 pitcher who can go on short rest. I understand that these are the conditions that are and will be played under and teams can moild their teams as such. But the while yankees were the better team, it was hardly because Ryan howard didnt hit or bred lidge blew one game but because outside of Cliff lee their starters simply couldnt keep them close enough.

What always amazes me is how Oakland, San Diego and MN can come up with these light out bullpens every year made up of retreads and wash out guys yet Philly and the yankees can have such shaky pens? Outside of mariano who is a freak of nature the rest of the Yankees bullpen was costly and weak. The Phils use Chan Ho, enough said.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

we need hamels to really work out the off season. If we can get 2008 Hamels back then we will be fine.

Blanton, Happ, Cliff and a 2008 Hamels is a great staff. They are really high on this Drabek kid and he may take Pedro's spot. Hire Jamie Moyer as the pitching coach. If Drabeck can have a Happ like year we will be in a very good position. It really boils down to which Cole Hamels shows up.

They REALLY need a better closer and a deeper bullpen and some right handed bats off the bench.. also a guy who can play some infield and give rollins/utley breaks.

You need someone to figure out where the snap is on Hamels pitches went. For your sake I hope it isnt the same place Barry Zitos went.

No way Drabeck throws more than 150 ML innings next year.

They also need to figure what happened to the real Jimmy Rollins?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What always amazes me is how Oakland, San Diego and MN can come up with these light out bullpens every year made up of retreads and wash out guys yet Philly and the yankees can have such shaky pens? Outside of mariano who is a freak of nature the rest of the Yankees bullpen was costly and weak. The Phils use Chan Ho, enough said.

Oakland, sd and minn's bullpens arent put in the same pressure situations obviously as the yanks or phils. Of course they are lights out...during the regular. The yankees bullpen over the second half of the season was awesome. Hughes was looking like the "bridge to Mo". The playoffs expose everyone.

And I don't understand how the yanks bullpen was so costly. Who was expensive really besides MO?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Oakland, sd and minn's bullpens arent put in the same pressure situations obviously as the yanks or phils. Of course they are lights out...during the regular. The yankees bullpen over the second half of the season was awesome. Hughes was looking like the "bridge to Mo". The playoffs expose everyone.

And I don't understand how the yanks bullpen was so costly. Who was expensive really besides MO?

Yeah sure. Only in NY or Philly is there pressure. LOL.

I mean why not always give an answer with no tangible way to measure? For middle relief pitchers the pressure is the same regrdless of where or when you pitch because most of them are a few bad outings from being gone. More pressure to pitch in NY or more pressure to pitch for your job?

At the very least you could have pointed out that Oak and SD are very favorable towards pitchers and Philly and NY obviously arent.