Zenyatta

[slotdirt]

Among fillies/mares who've won Breeders Cup races at Churchill the last five years, I'd still take Ouija Board over Zenyatta for her overall body of work. Just saying...

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I partially agree but not totally. I would expect the grade I, male milers to run at least a full second faster than Distictive Dixie even if there wasn't much pace in the race. Even if they ran equal early fractions, I would expect the males to run a mimimun of a second faster. I agree that better quality horses usually run faster fractions but not always. I see plenty of grade I races where the fractions are not fast. On the other hand, fast fractions don't always translate to faster times. They usually do, but not always. If the best horses in the race are speed horses, if the fractions are too fast it may slow down the final time. But if the best horses in the race are come-from-behinders then a fast pace will almost always improve the final time.

Anyway, I can't tell you exactly how much the track slowed down over the course of the day. Between the two races we're talking about, it may have been only a tick or two but I think that track does slow down later in the day. Do you disagree that the track slowed down over the course of the day on opening day (Oct 31)?

I don't think there's any evidence to support that. Especially considering the fact that you're dealing with 2yo's without a lot of established form.

The three outliers would be the 5th, 6th and 11th- the 5th, an allowance won by almost 20 but in a rather modest time- resulting in a 73 raw Beyer; the 6th, a very fast maiden won by 8 for an 84 raw Beyer, and the 11th, a slow maiden won with a raw Beyer of 59.

5th: The connections of Blame sent out the winner, who was visually impressive- but the also-rans looked like they wanted a place to lie down. There's a good chance this is a negative key race.

6th: Steve Asmussen sends out a dominating 2yo winner who went off favored in his 2nd start and ran well, then crushes in his 3rd start. I've heard this story before.

11th: The winner went off at 3-1 despite being in the 12 hole and debuting at Presque Isle, 4th beaten 6 lengths. The only other horse to run went off favored, and was dreadful at KEE. Clearly, this was the weakest of the three maiden races at 6F on the day. Not surprising that it was also the slowest race on the day.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

i hope he can do the same to mott, pletcher , rice , dutrow ,etc ,etc on the track joey

I could whip those 4 at the same time! And if they come to Parx with a maiden 12500 JL Flores and I will put it on them.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I could whip those 4 at the same time! And if they come to Parx with a maiden 12500 JL Flores and I will put it on them.

got gem chuck , take it easy on linda though , you could break her into 2!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

The horse lost by a HEAD, Joey. While she lost, she still ran SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than any of her detractors thought she would. Rather than just stating this, which Beyer did in his latest article, some here feel the need to still come after her or anyone who appreciates her performance. This would be, among others, a group that held QR in high regard (even just before the Classic). Or thought that RA would beat Z or, even, that Blind Luck or even, laughably, LAL, were better than Z. Now, this isn't a bunch of know nothings; this is some of the better handicappers around. This typically constitutes STFU in most intelligent circles.

As for Cannon: he's already demonstrated he's clueless when it comes to evaluating races. In other words, his tripping skills are woeful. Now, he might be a better trainer than tripper but the quality of his stock, presently, doesn't support this. (I realize that he's waiting for the call by Darley or Repole.)

I do applaud his recent efforts on this thread however. Clearly, he has an axe to grind. And Z obviously shook his ass up by just missing. In this he had quite a bit of company.

You are simply a faceless troll on the internet. I have a grasp of the sport that you just aren't intellegent enough to understand. Keep making up phony idiocy like "footwork" and other garbage like your flawed charts that no one else cares about. Only about 10% of the people who are involved or follow this sport really have any clue as to what really is happening. You shouldn't be ashamed that you fall into the other 90%. There are some people who are far smarter than you that don't get it either.

You probably should try to get some help before your self-loathing becomes dangerous to others.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

got gem chuck , take it easy on linda though , you could break her into 2!

I don't hit girls...



but would make an exception for TFM.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I don't hit girls...



but would make an exception for TFM.

chuck what about wash dc now , will the republicans raise the debt limit or will they let the economy crash and then nancy pelosi will say i told you so?

what happens now over the next 6 - 24 months?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I don't hit girls...



but would make an exception for TFM.

You should take it easy on TFF. He's so much more intelligent than any of us, that he's forgotten to take the time to develop his social skills.

He reminds me of a line from an old Oingo Boingo song, Only a Lad.

"Perhaps if we're nice he'll go away. Perhaps if we're nice he'll go away way"

Actually, the whole song describes him!

[nebrady]

Are you kidding me. So you blackthroat wind and stupid you are the people who are the intelligent ones? The rest of us are trolls and not intelligent enough for your vast expert opinion? Comon man this is absolutley ridiculous! You think you know it all, but you still don't get it. Zenyatta has to be considered one of the greatest ever. She beat gio ponti in the classic last year. The only horse he has lose to are super fillies goldikova and zenyatta. With a little racing luck he would have won the arlington million twice! She beat a great horse called ginger punch on the dirt and barely lost to blame having a horrible start and being checked and going 6 wide and you people still bash her! Plus your telling me shes not good for the sport? Did you hear and see all the people cheering for her? If that isn't good for the sport what is?

[CSC]

I'd like to attempt to put some semblance of closure to this, with Zenyatta's 2nd to Blame in the BC Classic as probably being the only gauge on how she fares against the best dirt horses in the world, she should go down as one of the greatest in the game, losing to Blame is slightly better than losing to Alphabet Soup in most opinions, so if Cigar is to be considered as one of the greats then certainly she fits the critaria also. Greatest of all time, no she hasn't done enough to rank with Secretariat whom I regard as the gold standard of all standards. No one touches him and I doubt we will see another like him. But in terms of being able to run on both surfaces, she has proven she is efficient on both. Not many can, consider that.

Wish we could have saw more, but you punish the connections for this, not the horse.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by nebrady

Are you kidding me. So you blackthroat wind and stupid you are the people who are the intelligent ones? The rest of us are trolls and not intelligent enough for your vast expert opinion? Comon man this is absolutley ridiculous! You think you know it all, but you still don't get it. Zenyatta has to be considered one of the greatest ever. She beat gio ponti in the classic last year. The only horse he has lose to are super fillies goldikova and zenyatta. With a little racing luck he would have won the arlington million twice! She beat a great horse called ginger punch on the dirt and barely lost to blame having a horrible start and being checked and going 6 wide and you people still bash her! Plus your telling me shes not good for the sport? Did you hear and see all the people cheering for her? If that isn't good for the sport what is?

These gems plus your overall inability to put a sentence together aren't really helping to loft you into that 10%.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

These gems plus your overall inability to put a sentence together aren't really helping to loft you into that 10%.

Wait, you were too kind, you didn't include the part about how Gio Ponti has only lost to super fillies like Zenyatta and Goldikova.

What does that say about Interpatation

[hockey2315]

She's simply not one of the greatest horses of all time. I don't know why everyone feels the need to make her one. She's an excellent mare with an excellent record, and probably one of the best mares of all time going long on dirt and fake stuff. But, I can think of at least three other horses since 2005 that would have beaten her comfortably Saturday. . . and a few more on turf that blow her out of the water as far as pure ability.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

She's simply not one of the greatest horses of all time. I don't know why everyone feels the need to make her one. She's an excellent mare with an excellent record, and probably one of the best mares of all time going long on dirt and fake stuff. But, I can think of at least three other horses since 2005 that would have beaten her comfortably Saturday.

Please name the 3 that would beat her comfortably going 10f on dirt. Thanks.

[slotdirt]

If you take the Bloodhorse top 100 list of U.S. horses for the 1900's and extrapolate it to include the years 2000-2010, where does Zenyatta rank on that list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood-H...e_20th_Century

What other American horses from 2000 on would merit consideration? Ghostzapper? Rachel Alexandra? Tiznow?

Anyway, Swaps is 20th on that list. Could you place Zenyatta above Swaps? How about Phar Lap at 22nd? John Henry at 23rd? Ruffian at 35th? Busher at 40th? Personal Ensign at 48th? Twilight Tear at 59th? All Along at 68th?

WHere would she belong?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Please name the 3 that would beat her comfortably going 10f on dirt. Thanks.

Curlin, Invasor, Bernardini.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by nebrady

Are you kidding me. So you blackthroat wind and stupid you are the people who are the intelligent ones? The rest of us are trolls and not intelligent enough for your vast expert opinion? Comon man this is absolutley ridiculous! You think you know it all, but you still don't get it. Zenyatta has to be considered one of the greatest ever. She beat gio ponti in the classic last year. The only horse he has lose to are super fillies goldikova and zenyatta. With a little racing luck he would have won the arlington million twice! She beat a great horse called ginger punch on the dirt and barely lost to blame having a horrible start and being checked and going 6 wide and you people still bash her! Plus your telling me shes not good for the sport? Did you hear and see all the people cheering for her? If that isn't good for the sport what is?

What is this obsession you have with me? Did I say the 90%/10% thing? Or are you too dumb to look at the poster's name and just assume that if it's something you disagree with it's me or Andy. I'm seriously getting a little creeped out by you addressing every single post you make to me.

And Gio Ponti lost to Interpatation, Winchester and Debussy too you ignorant mouthbreather.

[The Bid]

Some people just know it all I guess.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by nebrady

Are you kidding me. So you blackthroat wind and stupid you are the people who are the intelligent ones? The rest of us are trolls and not intelligent enough for your vast expert opinion? Comon man this is absolutley ridiculous! You think you know it all, but you still don't get it. Zenyatta has to be considered one of the greatest ever. She beat gio ponti in the classic last year. The only horse he has lose to are super fillies goldikova and zenyatta. With a little racing luck he would have won the arlington million twice! She beat a great horse called ginger punch on the dirt and barely lost to blame having a horrible start and being checked and going 6 wide and you people still bash her! Plus your telling me shes not good for the sport? Did you hear and see all the people cheering for her? If that isn't good for the sport what is?

It is telling that you included yourself in the 90%.

Of course your assertions that Gio Ponti and Ginger Punch are tremendous historical measuing sticks places you in the lower portion of the 90%.

Yeah luck, 'what could have been', cheering, etc are all things that we should take into consideration when evaluating horses and their records.

It really isn't my fault that so many people refuse to learn the history of the sport or in your case simply see what you want to see regardless of how delusional that you are. Checked? 6 wide?

Peyton Hillis nightmares last night?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

What is this obsession you have with me? Did I say the 90%/10% thing? Or are you too dumb to look at the poster's name and just assume that if it's something you disagree with it's me or Andy. I'm seriously getting a little creeped out by you addressing every single post you make to me.

And Gio Ponti lost to Interpatation, Winchester and Debussy too you ignorant mouthbreather.

You answer to stupid?