Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[cmorioles]

Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

Give me 3 valid, truthful, proven reasons to eliminate furosemide on race day.

[cmorioles]

1) You can get the same help from a nasal strip.
2) Many horses don't need it.
3) It enhances performance. You may not like the proof, but I have given plenty, and it is legitimate. I'm sure you haven't bothered to check any of it out, but that doesn't make it less true.

Now, why again is 1) not enough besides silly answers like "it is tradition to drug horses" and "those darn nasal strips fall off"?

Please don't avoid the question again, just say I don't know or I give up if you can't answer with something that a kindergartner would laugh off.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

1) You can get the same help from a nasal strip.

Nasal strips and lasix work in entirely different ways. Why do you think one is better than the other?

2) Many horses don't need it.

What percentage of horses don't need lasix?

3) It enhances performance. You may not like the proof, but I have given plenty, and it is legitimate. I'm sure you haven't bothered to check any of it out, but that doesn't make it less true.

Nope. Haven't read any furosemide research at all ...

Do tell me - how does lasix specifically enhance performance? What does it actually do to horses?

Now, why again is 1) not enough besides silly answers like "it is tradition to drug horses" and "those darn nasal strips fall off"?

Please don't avoid the question again, just say I don't know or I give up if you can't answer with something that a kindergartner would laugh off.

[cmorioles]

What difference does it make how they work, as long as they do? Surely if the results are similar any sane person would choose the strip over an injection, unless of course there are other reasons they don't want to discuss.

I would say less than 50% of horses actually need Lasix. Can it be proven these days, probably not, but I've been following the game a long, long time, certainly before it was legal and then later abused.

I have no idea how it enhances performance, but you can't deny the results. Well, you can, but an unbiased person wouldn't.

Again, no answer. I rest my case.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Again, no answer. I rest my case.

While you are resting, you might want to start at the beginning of the thread and read it.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

While you are resting, you might want to start at the beginning of the thread and read it.

Maybe after you answer. Obviously you can't and stick to your argument, so you won't.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Maybe after you answer. Obviously you can't and stick to your argument, so you won't.

It seems you've lost track of what's going on here. You were asked to give reasons why lasix shouldn't be used, and you gave three. And now I'm asking you to defend your reasons. Can you do that?

I answered your question about why lasix and not FLAIR strips in post 273, the third and fourth paragraph. Please re-read that.

You have quoted back paragraphs one and two to me, dismissing them as reasons, although those were not given by me as reasons, they were only comments. My reasons are in the third and fourth paragraphs. So please don't say I haven't answered, when I clearly have.

[cmorioles]

I know you did, and those answers smell to high heaven. None of that matters if the effect is the same, and you already admitted it was. Since you are never going to answer, I'll end this now. It was fun while it lasted, but you are truly no different than the anti-Lasix zealots. You completely ignore everything I ask because it doesn't fit your agenda.

I'll let Rollo commence with his beat down in the Havre de Grace thread. He is much smarter than me.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I know you did, and those answers smell to high heaven. None of that matters if the effect is the same, and you already admitted it was. Since you are never going to answer, I'll end this now. It was fun while it lasted, but you are truly no different than the anti-Lasix zealots. You completely ignore everything I ask because it doesn't fit your agenda.

I answered your question about why lasix and not FLAIR strips in post 273, the third and fourth paragraph. Please re-read that.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'd use both FLAIR and lasix. One of the causes of EIPH is thought to be unsustainable pressure differences between pulmonary capillaries and alveolar air, causing tearing of pulmonary capillary walls and bleeding into the alveoli.

FLAIR decreases the massive negative pressure generated during inspiration,that is thought to help tear vessels; and lasix decreases the exercise-induced rise in pulmonary vasculature pressure. Best to reduce pressure on both sides of the aveolar/capillary interface, in order to protect it.

Plus, FLAIR seems to just help them get more air flow - like a human wearing a Breath-right strip

Originally Posted by Riot

I answered your question about why lasix and not FLAIR strips in post 273, the third and fourth paragraph. Please re-read that.

You kinda did, but not really.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

I answered your question about why lasix and not FLAIR strips in post 273, the third and fourth paragraph. Please re-read that.

I already addressed those answers. Reading is fundamental. I asked questions about your responses, and typically, they were ignored.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Traditions? If tradition was important, all the horses wouldn't be getting Lasix now, would they? Surely we can get better than "tradition" and "they don't stick too good". Use both? Why, if both do the same thing, would you pay double? These answers are as lame as the statements from the pro ban side, maybe lamer.

Dude they dont stick very well which means they dont necessarily work very effectively. At Lasixpalooza some research vet from Michigan state who is the foremost researcher into EIPH said that the most effective way to treat it is a combo of lasix and nasal strips. So I figured that i would try to get something out of those wasted 8 hours soooo.....I tried the nasal strip/lasix combination on a horse I had that was a pretty bad bleeder (I bought him for a ham sandwich because he was a pretty good hunter prospect and wanted to see if we could get the bleeding under control before reselling him). Of course the nasal strip fell half off (it was hot and humid), the horse bled after running pretty well and off to the pretty horsey people he went.

The point is that this is hardly an exact science, and for someone who supposedly doesnt care one way or another you make statements that kinda show you do seem to care. If it makes you happy I will admit for all trainers that we only use lasix because it makes our horses run faster, that bleeding is entirely overblown and the other 1000 or so things that are given to horses that everyone ignores have absolutely no effect on performance.

Anything to end this thread and the hundred emails it sends to my yahoo account...

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I already addressed those answers. Reading is fundamental. I asked questions about your responses, and typically, they were ignored.

Naw. You've spent the thread completely ignoring anything you didn't like hearing, dismissing opinions you don't like out of hand. And that's been pointed out by more than one poster here.

You might try re-reading the thread from the start. You might learn the answers to your questions, which were discussed in more depth pages ago.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dude they dont stick very well which means they dont necessarily work very effectively. At Lasixpalooza some research vet from Michigan state who is the foremost researcher into EIPH said that the most effective way to treat it is a combo of lasix and nasal strips. So I figured that i would try to get something out of those wasted 8 hours soooo.....I tried the nasal strip/lasix combination on a horse I had that was a pretty bad bleeder (I bought him for a ham sandwich because he was a pretty good hunter prospect and wanted to see if we could get the bleeding under control before reselling him). Of course the nasal strip fell half off (it was hot and humid), the horse bled after running pretty well and off to the pretty horsey people he went.

The point is that this is hardly an exact science, and for someone who supposedly doesnt care one way or another you make statements that kinda show you do seem to care. If it makes you happy I will admit for all trainers that we only use lasix because it makes our horses run faster, that bleeding is entirely overblown and the other 1000 or so things that are given to horses that everyone ignores have absolutely no effect on performance.

Anything to end this thread and the hundred emails it sends to my yahoo account...

Just playing devil's advocate. When the strips were popular, I don't remember seeing a bunch flopping in the wind, do you? Surely they could improve that part of it if the problem was bad.

Why aren't the "other things" caught or ratted out? I just don't get it. I want them gone too, but unless other trainers step up and talk, it isn't going to happen. Somebody on the backstretch has to know.

At least this way you get some email!

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

I've spent the thread completely ignoring anything you didn't like hearing, dismissing opinions you don't like out of hand.

Tidied that up for you!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Tidied that up for you!

Not really. I asked you before, concerning your reason 1) why don't you want to decrease the pulmonary vascular pressures? Considering 93% of horses have hemosiderophages and RBC's in their alveoli post-exercise, you being against attenuating that makes no sense to me. Please - explain.

And I asked you to give me three reasons you think lasix should not be used, and you indeed listed three. But you refuse to support them with any reasoning, other than you think that merely stating them makes them true? Do you have ANY support for your reasons not to use lasix? Convince me! I'll be glad to change my mind.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Just playing devil's advocate. When the strips were popular, I don't remember seeing a bunch flopping in the wind, do you? Surely they could improve that part of it if the problem was bad.

Why aren't the "other things" caught or ratted out? I just don't get it. I want them gone too, but unless other trainers step up and talk, it isn't going to happen. Somebody on the backstretch has to know.

At least this way you get some email!

I never saw where they worked very well for anything. Like most fads people tried them for awhile and didn't see much difference in anything really. Now they kind of act as a negative sign especially if you are thinking of claiming something with a nasal strip figuring it either bleeds a lot or has a bad airway.

The problem with other trainers "ratting out" other trainers is that without something short of a picture of someone actually giving a horse a shot in the neck or milkshaking a horse it is mostly dismissed as jealousy. Which sometimes it probably is. Perhaps I havent been persistent enough in trying to explain that the "authorities" in most jurisdictions are woefully inept, tragically underfunded or both. At the risk of starting another tangent if the ivory tower crowd focued their energies towards racings farce of a police force the game might actually get a little "cleaner". Instead they worry only about that which they know which in itself is telling.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I never saw where they worked very well for anything. Like most fads people tried them for awhile and didn't see much difference in anything really. Now they kind of act as a negative sign especially if you are thinking of claiming something with a nasal strip figuring it either bleeds a lot or has a bad airway.

The problem with other trainers "ratting out" other trainers is that without something short of a picture of someone actually giving a horse a shot in the neck or milkshaking a horse it is mostly dismissed as jealousy. Which sometimes it probably is. Perhaps I havent been persistent enough in trying to explain that the "authorities" in most jurisdictions are woefully inept, tragically underfunded or both. At the risk of starting another tangent if the ivory tower crowd focued their energies towards racings farce of a police force the game might actually get a little "cleaner". Instead they worry only about that which they know which in itself is telling.

I guess I'll just never get that. If anyone had any real evidence and went to the press it would be reported. I'm not talking about the phony racing press that is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the elite, I'm talking the real press that would eat something like this up.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Not really. I asked you before, concerning your reason 1) why don't you want to decrease the pulmonary vascular pressures? Considering 93% of horses have hemosiderophages and RBC's in their alveoli post-exercise, you being against attenuating that makes no sense to me. Please - explain.

And I asked you to give me three reasons you think lasix should not be used, and you indeed listed three. But you refuse to support them with any reasoning, other than you think that merely stating them makes them true? Do you have ANY support for your reasons not to use lasix? Convince me! I'll be glad to change my mind.

You are hilarious. I asked you questions first, which you never answered, and yet I am supposed to go on forever responding to your questions. Yeah, horses get Lasix because it is traditional. That is rich.