Kentucky's ongoing attempt to end racing in state proceeds..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I guess I'll just never get that. If anyone had any real evidence and went to the press it would be reported. I'm not talking about the phony racing press that is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the elite, I'm talking the real press that would eat something like this up.

The trick is coming up with "real evidence". It isn't like trainers have the ability to do a sting operation on the guy in the next barn. They have these 800 numbers at some tracks to call in anyonomous tips but I have never heard of anything ever coming from those. There was a top trainer at Calder that was tossed off (for a while at least) because a groom he had stiffed on a stakes check actually took a picture of him giving a horse a shot. The irony is the groom just wanted to collect his money, he wasnt looking to be a racetrack cop. But even then the track was the one who took action, not the racing commission.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The trick is coming up with "real evidence". It isn't like trainers have the ability to do a sting operation on the guy in the next barn. They have these 800 numbers at some tracks to call in anyonomous tips but I have never heard of anything ever coming from those. There was a top trainer at Calder that was tossed off (for a while at least) because a groom he had stiffed on a stakes check actually took a picture of him giving a horse a shot. The irony is the groom just wanted to collect his money, he wasnt looking to be a racetrack cop. But even then the track was the one who took action, not the racing commission.

It just seems there would be a lot more disgruntled employees, and it isn't like backstretch workers don't change barns a lot. I'm with you, I have no doubt there is a lot of cheating going on, I'm just mystified how it remains hidden for so long.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It just seems there would be a lot more disgruntled employees, and it isn't like backstretch workers don't change barns a lot. I'm with you, I have no doubt there is a lot of cheating going on, I'm just mystified how it remains hidden for so long.

probably because of money. only so much probably budgeted for r & d on drug detection.
then there's just how much can you do to someone if they do get caught. look at the appeals processes and the like.
and you have repeat offenders who get more and better horses after a suspension than they did before. you'd have to think if owners were more inclined to try to avoid cheaters they'd just naturally get winnowed out. no clients, no horses, no job. but no, they get people knocking down their doors.
people talk about changing it, but the only attempt i've seen is what's brought about this thread. seems like there'd be other things to tackle than a drug that may or may not improve a horse, that apparently no longer is a masking drug, and actually has medical benefits.
but, lasix is the bad guy and people like biancone, mullins, dutrow, asmussen are doing fine, if not increasing their numbers of horses.

[Riot]

So, there was a veterinary conference held today at the Horse Park in association with Rolex Three Day Event.

FYI - Jeremy Whitman, current President of the Kentucky Association of Equine Practioners, spoke about what he thought would happen with the Kentucky Thoroughbred racing world regarding lasix. He said that, in his opinion, all the last vote did was, "buy thirty days" and delay the inevitable. He predicts the vote to ban lasix will pass next meeting.

The KAEP, along with the AVMA and AAEP, have all been working very hard for the health and welfare of the race horse. It appears those that manage horse racing in Kentucky will go ahead and simply ignore their medical recommendations.

The horse doesn't come first in Kentucky.

[Indian Charlie]

The more that people ignore medical 'experts', the better off everyone and everything will be.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

The more that people ignore medical 'experts', the better off everyone and everything will be.

That's right. I'd go with creationism

There were a bunch of big names there ... head vet for the 2012 Olympics, he's done WEG and Pan Am games before, other big names in equine sports med. A little discussion about FEI and European banned substances, state of testing and drug detection, etc.

The US horse racing world is so behind the cheating other horse sports go with, let alone the testing capabilities. Yes, I mean that the TB world doesn't cheat as well, or as creatively, as other horse sports.

Catching it - it's the funding. And lack of real interest in the racing world to actually do something that matters. Hence: ban the (pretend) evil drug that prevents horses from bleeding into their lungs. Yeah, that's exactly what the sport needs now. But hey! "We did something". Pat selves on back as the sport dies and horses get harmed.

Fools.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

That's right. I'd go with creationism

There were a bunch of big names there ... head vet for the 2012 Olympics, he's done WEG and Pan Am games before, other big names in equine sports med. A little discussion about FEI and European banned substances, state of testing and drug detection, etc.

The US horse racing world is so behind the cheating other horse sports go with, let alone the testing capabilities. Yes, I mean that the TB world doesn't cheat as well, or as creatively, as other horse sports.

Catching it - it's the funding. And lack of real interest in the racing world to actually do something that matters. Hence: ban the (pretend) evil drug that prevents horses from bleeding into their lungs. Yeah, that's exactly what the sport needs now. But hey! "We did something". Pat selves on back as the sport dies and horses get harmed.

Fools.

It bears repeating.

You have something seriously wrong with your ability to comprehend posts you don't agree with.

What the hell does creationism have to do with avoiding doctors/vets?? Seriously?

The sport will not die if lasix is banned.

[citycat]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

It bears repeating.

You have something seriously wrong with your ability to comprehend posts you don't agree with.

What the hell does creationism have to do with avoiding doctors/vets?? Seriously?

The sport will not die if lasix is banned.

I agree that the sport will not die is Lasix is banned (although I do not think it should be banned) but the real point of the situation is why Kentucky. The sport is currently floundering here in the state with the inpending closure of Turfway and Ellis Parks after this year. There will be many people losing their jobs because of this and the Lasix will just be the final straw. The only way I would support a ban on Lasix if it were to be a nationwide wide and not just another hit to the sport here in Kentucky.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

You have something seriously wrong with your ability to comprehend posts you don't agree with.

What the hell does creationism have to do with avoiding doctors/vets?? Seriously?

.

Wow. It appears that using humor, by deliberately using an opposite metaphor, or deliberate misuse of logical fallacy, is beyond your understanding

Please ... don't lecture on "comprehension" when you can't understand the post you are lecturing about - LOL

[Riot]

Originally Posted by citycat

I agree that the sport will not die is Lasix is banned (although I do not think it should be banned) but the real point of the situation is why Kentucky. The sport is currently floundering here in the state with the inpending closure of Turfway and Ellis Parks after this year. There will be many people losing their jobs because of this and the Lasix will just be the final straw. The only way I would support a ban on Lasix if it were to be a nationwide wide and not just another hit to the sport here in Kentucky.

The only way it would work is nationwide, all at once. This will kill Kentucky racing. But nationwide, it's bad for horses. Lasix is so important for horse health it will be used in the morning for speed work like it is the world over, but we can't use it in the afternoon, when it matters, under the stress of racing, in front of the public? Even though the horses are under the same, if not increased, threat of EIPH? That's beyond ridiculous.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

The only way it would work is nationwide, all at once. This will kill Kentucky racing. But nationwide, it's bad for horses. Lasix is so important for horse health it will be used in the morning for speed work like it is the world over, but we can't use it in the afternoon, when it matters, under the stress of racing, in front of the public? Even though the horses are under the same, if not increased, threat of EIPH? That's beyond ridiculous.

I'll be honest here. I love horse racing, and I make a good living because of it. But, if all horses truly need to be injected with a drug to safely compete, it is probably a sport that should go away.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'll be honest here. I love horse racing, and I make a good living because of it. But, if all horses truly need to be injected with a drug to safely compete, it is probably a sport that should go away.

Horses are injected with a drug to help prevent physical problems that can be caused by what we ask them to do.

It's called "sports medicine" and good medical care. There is a difference between abusive medicine and therapeutic medicine. For god's sake - can we please do what's best for the health of the horse?

Horses - and some dogs and humans, btw - suffer EIPH at speed: race horses, barrel horses, quarter horses, harness horses, event horses, steeplechase horses, fox hunters.

The only way to eliminate EIPH is to eliminate any horse sport that involves speed and maximal effort. It's hardly limited to racing them. It's called Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage.

It's simple - put the welfare of the horse first.

American Veterinary Medical Association policy

Therapeutic Medications in Racehorses
(Oversight Committee: AWC; EB 11/2010)

The AVMA endorses the American Association of Equine Practitioners' policy on therapeutic medications in racehorses, which reads as follows:

"The AAEP policy on medication in pari-mutuel racing is driven by our mission to improve the health and welfare of the horse.

The AAEP policy is aimed at providing the best health care possible for the racehorses competing while ensuring the integrity of the sport.

The AAEP expects its members to abide by the rules of all jurisdictions where they practice.

The AAEP condemns the administration of non-therapeutic or unprescribed medications to racehorses by anyone.

The AAEP believes that all therapeutic medication should be administered to racehorses by or under the direction of a licensed veterinarian.

Health care decisions on individual horses should involve the veterinarian, the trainer and owner with the best interests of the horse as the primary objective.

The AAEP strongly encourages continued research in determining the therapeutic levels and appropriate withdrawal times that represent responsible use of medication in the racehorse.

The AAEP is aware of the dynamics of the development of new products, as well as the continuing evaluation of current medications, and will continue to evaluate its policy based upon available scientific research and the best interests of the horse.

In order to provide the best health care possible for the racehorse, veterinarians should utilize the most modern diagnostic and therapeutic modalities available in accordance with medication guidelines designed to ensure the integrity of the sport.

To this end, the following are the essential elements of AAEP policy concerning veterinary care of the racehorse:

All racing jurisdictions should adopt the uniform medication guidelines set forth by the Racing and Medication Testing Consortium Inc. (RMTC). Including the RMTC testing procedures with strict quality controls and penalty schedules, these guidelines and procedures strive to protect the integrity of racing as well as the health and well-being of the horse.

Race day medication must be in accordance with current RMTC guidelines. In the absence of a more effective treatment/preventative for exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage (EIPH), the AAEP supports the use of furosemide as a day-of-the-race medication to control EIPH. The AAEP advocates the research and development of new treatments to help prevent and/or control EIPH.

The AAEP encourages proactive and constructive communication between regulatory bodies and practicing veterinarians and other industry stakeholders.

The AAEP believes that all veterinarians should use judicious, prudent and ethical decisions in all treatments to ensure the health and welfare of the horse.

The AAEP strongly endorses increased surveillance and enforcement of the above-mentioned regulations."

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Horses are injected with a drug to help prevent physical problems that can be caused by what we ask them to do.

Really? No sh!t. That was my whole point. If every horse needs an injection of drugs to race, we probably shouldn't be racing horses. Now, personally I don't think they all need it, but you know that already. I'm just not sure the US is ready to hear we run a sport where every horse needs drugs to run. How is that going to fly?

Originally Posted by Riot

The only way to eliminate EIPH is to eliminate any horse sport that involves speed and maximal effort. It's hardly limited to racing them. It's called Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage.

I never said it could be eliminated, I'm just saying drugs are overused, but you also know that. Amazingly, the rest of the world seems to do just fine without it, and also kick our ass much of the time. When is the last time a horse from the US shipped overseas and won a race of consequence?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Really? No sh!t. That was my whole point. If every horse needs an injection of drugs to race, we probably shouldn't be racing horses. Now, personally I don't think they all need it, but you know that already. I'm just not sure the US is ready to hear we run a sport where every horse needs drugs to run. How is that going to fly?

Nobody is advocating that all horses get it. Nobody is saying all horses need it.

But the truth is that 93% of horses that race in North America have evidence of bleeding in their lungs, lasix helps prevent that, and why is the racing industry trying to take that therapeutic help away?

Should we stop working on current research to find other drugs that help prevent or provide relief for EIPH?

Those same horses bleed on race day in other countries that don't use lasix - and suffer worse affects from the episodes because the severity isn't attenuated.

Again: you want to eliminate lasix, eliminate all horse sports at speed. Let's go down the slippery slope of that argument. And prevent some human athletic competitions. And hunting dogs. And if we want to prevent broken legs, or any athletic injuries, to animals, let's just refuse to do anything with horses - or other animals - but watch them be lawn ornaments in pastures. Let's prevent the Amish from using them as carriage horses. Let's let PETA take over the world.

Now, the above is silly. Most of us here love horses, and love horse racing. So let's continue to put the horse first, and make racing them safer and healthier for the horse - not move away from that

[cmorioles]

You are being ridiculous. Which races allow the humans to take Lasix?

Maybe 93% show "some" bleeding, but of that percentage, how many can race without side effects and really need it to be successful? I'm guessing it is a MUCH smaller number. After all, we had racing for a century before it was deemed necessary for so many horses.

Plain and simple, it was abused because many felt it was a performance enhancer and that those that actually did need it were getting an advantage. So, they started searching for easier and easier ways to get Lasix for the horse. That is what got us where we are today.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You are being ridiculous. Which races allow the humans to take Lasix?

I'm saying that Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage is not a problem only of horses.

Maybe 93% show "some" bleeding, but of that percentage, how many can race without side effects and really need it to be successful? I'm guessing it is a MUCH smaller number.

How do you define "successful"? Earning money?

Because I'm sure the horse would much prefer to have air in his alveolar sacs during running, instead of blood and hemosiderophages. It makes oxygenation easier.

After all, we had racing for a century before it was deemed necessary for so many horses.

A century ago, we didn't have the modern medical capability we have now. Medical advancement in health care of the horse is a good thing. We didn't have penicillin during World War one. Does that mean we shouldn't have used it in Viet Nam?

And we've raced horses for much longer than a century.

Plain and simple, it was abused because many felt it was a performance enhancer and that those that actually did need it were getting an advantage. So, they started searching for easier and easier ways to get Lasix for the horse. That is what got us where we are today.

But today we have modern medicine, and research, and we are far more educated on the extent and complications of EIPH in race horses. We are completely familiar with the pharmacology of lasix. We haven't had a problem with lasix diluting drug samples for over 20 years.

So now, with our increased education and knowledge, the veterinary world is advising the horse racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to continue to be used as a therapeutic medication on race day, for the health and welfare of the horse.

But those that control racing are making a stupid, ignorant choice to do the opposite, based upon outdated and no longer valid "reasons and knowledge" from literally decades ago.

[cmorioles]

1994, BC Classic, 14 horses run, 6 with Lasix. Lasix horses take the first 6 spots.
1995, 10 of 11 with Lasix
1996, 11 of 13
1997, 9 of 9
1998, 9 of 10
1999, 14 of 14
2000, 13 of 13
2001, 13 of 13
2002, 12 of 12
2003, 10 of 10
2004, 12 of 13, foreign shipper lone exception
2005, 13 of 13
2006, 12 of 13, foreign shipper lone exception
2007, 9 of 9
2008, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2009, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2010, 11 of 12, foreign shipper lone exception
2011, 12 of 12

Since 1999, EVERY American horse in our best race has been injected with a drug to race. Not 93%, but 100%. We are talking around 130 horse and EVERY one was given Lasix. Sure, it isn't abused.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm saying that Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage is not a problem only of horses.

And yet, life goes on without Lasix outside of horse racing in athletic competition.

I'm starting the think the stupid, ignorant choice that was made was allowing Lasix in the first place.

[Riot]

Since 1999, EVERY American horse in our best race has been injected with a drug to race. Not 93%, but 100%. We are talking around 130 horse and EVERY one was given Lasix. Sure, it isn't abused.

Your assumption is mere use = abuse.

My viewpoint - based upon the science - is that use = therapy good for the horse.

Who cares what was done 10 years ago? 100 years ago? What matters is what we know now, today, about the horse's health.

And those that know race horse health best, the veterinary world, based upon today's medical knowledge and research, are advising the racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to be used on race day as a therapeutic medication for the health and welfare of the race horse.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Your assumption is mere use = abuse.

My viewpoint - based upon the science - is that use = therapy good for the horse.

Who cares what was done 10 years ago? 100 years ago? What matters is what we know now, today, about the horse's health.

And those that know race horse health best, the veterinary world, based upon today's medical knowledge and research, are advising the racing world to allow one drug - lasix - to be used on race day as a therapeutic medication for the health and welfare of the race horse.

Simple, 93% of horses allegedly need it, yet 100% get it. Sure, that makes sense.