Pletcher ... Same Old Story - Page 2

Rupert Pupkin · #21 05-09-2007, 05:22 PM

I have a question for you guys. If Pletcher trained his Derby horses differently this year, which Pletcher horse would have beaten Street Sense in the Derby? I don't think any of them. Street Sense ran huge in the Derby. I don't think any of Pletcher's horses could have beaten him, no matter what Pletcher would have done.

2Hot4TV · #22 05-09-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have a question for you guys. If Pletcher trained his Derby horses differently this year, which Pletcher horse would have beaten Street Sense in the Derby? I don't think any of them. Street Sense ran huge in the Derby. I don't think any of Pletcher's horses could have beaten him, no matter what Pletcher would have done.

NONE OF THEM. He didn't have the horse to beat SS. I think he did well to keep as many of them healthy enough to get in the race.

cmorioles · #23 05-09-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I have a question for you guys. If Pletcher trained his Derby horses differently this year, which Pletcher horse would have beaten Street Sense in the Derby? I don't think any of them. Street Sense ran huge in the Derby. I don't think any of Pletcher's horses could have beaten him, no matter what Pletcher would have done.

But they at least could have beaten Imawildncrazyguy and Sedgefield, no?

2Hot4TV · #24 05-09-2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

But they at least could have beaten Imawildncrazyguy and Sedgefield, no?

That would of put me in to some winning super's

2MinsToPost · #25 05-09-2007, 06:03 PM

and Peyton Manning could not lead a team to a ................................

Danzig · #26 05-09-2007, 06:22 PM

well, since the derby is a done deal, any talk of what if's would be pure speculation.

BUT street sense certainly has not proven to be unbeatable.

nafzger, jones and asmussen did right by their horses, all three (not so much curlin imo) ran very well, and evidently their trainers knew what they were doing. of course asmussen got curlin late in the game, so having what he had to work with, all things considered curlin did well.

but for a guy to have 5 of the 20 starters, and fail so dismally.....something just isn't right there.

Rupert Pupkin · #27 05-09-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles

But they at least could have beaten Imawildncrazyguy and Sedgefield, no?

Yes, that's true.

ArlJim78 · #28 05-09-2007, 06:31 PM

Carl Nafzger has only taken three horses to the derby in his entire career, and has two wins to show for it.

Revidere · #29 05-09-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

he's the dan marino of racing right now. but, unlike dan, he has time to change that. i think he will eventually.

As a Colts fan, I'm glad you didn't say Peyton Manning, although until this February you would have been tempted. Look, no one knows more than Pletcher that 5 off the board and 0-19 is more than disappointing. One thing gets overlooked is that he was ableto get five to the race. Sometimes you need the horse. When you look at his clients, Winstar, Scatourcio, Padua, Tabor, they are not people who take kindly to sitting out the big ones. Just my two cents.

fpsoxfan · #30 05-09-2007, 08:14 PM

There is no question that there is something to be said about concentrating on one or two horses. It had to be mayhem for him in the weeks leading up to and Derby Day. If I'm Tabor I want him to give all his attention to my horse, but the reality of the situation is NOBODY....was beating Street Sense.
Also Tabor has been trusting Pletcher with his horses for many years. Pletcher just has not had a horse good enough to win this yet. This does not diminish his skills as a trainer. Look at Saratoga. It's the Premier racing meet in the country. He has blown away the competition. He will win the Derby several times before it's over. I'm saying all of this and I'm not even a big Pletcher fan, I just have a major respect for his training abilities.

_ed_ · #31 05-09-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unstable

I've got a question for you, Chuck.

NBC made a big deal about Pletcher saddling all 5 horses. Would his rushing through the saddling routines have any effect on the way his horses ran? Athough he did saddle the top 2 runners in the Oaks (and another, if I'm not mistaken), is there something to be said for concentrating on 1 horse, and helping settle it, before a big race? Do you think his horses (and owners) would have been better served if he had drawn lots and concentrated on 1 horse and have his assistants assigned to each of the other horses? Just curious.

I think that's a very good point.

Cannon Shell · #32 05-09-2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unstable

I've got a question for you, Chuck.

NBC made a big deal about Pletcher saddling all 5 horses. Would his rushing through the saddling routines have any effect on the way his horses ran? Athough he did saddle the top 2 runners in the Oaks (and another, if I'm not mistaken), is there something to be said for concentrating on 1 horse, and helping settle it, before a big race? Do you think his horses (and owners) would have been better served if he had drawn lots and concentrated on 1 horse and have his assistants assigned to each of the other horses? Just curious.

no

timmgirvan · #33 05-09-2007, 08:49 PM

I could be completely wrong here BUT, It is such an accomplishment to get to the TC races that undue pressure is put on these trainers....its not like Florida was just glad to get to BCS title game/or NCAA finals(you can thank me later,Cajun)...horses are different...not machines. 20 horse fields don't help either. IMO..if you want an honest race and conditions...you gotta trim the field to the one starting gate. Any trainer in the World would trade places with TP for the success he's garnered in the past years!

ateamstupid · #34 05-09-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

I could be completely wrong here BUT, It is such an accomplishment to get to the TC races that undue pressure is put on these trainers....its not like Florida was just glad to get to BCS title game/or NCAA finals(you can thank me later,Cajun)...horses are different...not machines. 20 horse fields don't help either. IMO..if you want an honest race and conditions...you gotta trim the field to the one starting gate. Any trainer in the World would trade places with TP for the success he's garnered in the past years!

There's no doubt that Pletcher has been the dominant trainer in America in the past few years. But you're wrong. This is just like any other sport in that it's not enough to just get to a big day like the Derby or BC. You've got to show something on those days, especially if you're setting training records left and right, and this was as good a day as any for Pletcher to show something, and he didn't. He came up empty for whatever reason. Period.

timmgirvan · #35 05-10-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

There's no doubt that Pletcher has been the dominant trainer in America in the past few years. But you're wrong. This is just like any other sport in that it's not enough to just get to a big day like the Derby or BC. You've got to show something on those days, especially if you're setting training records left and right, and this was as good a day as any for Pletcher to show something, and he didn't. He came up empty for whatever reason. Period.

The difference,my friend,is exactly what you wrote...it's about the horses...you can do everything possible to see them into the race and ...then they don't fire! I'd just as soon say that his horses weren't as advertized than hammer Pletcher. Frankel,Zito,Mandella have all had those stretches. You just shake your head and hit the next race!

MisterB · #36 05-10-2007, 10:00 AM

He will get one sooner than later. He has the edge, class wise.

#37 05-10-2007, 10:53 AM

After every Derby there is the standard quote from the trainer. "a trainer does not make the horse.... the horse makes the trainer" Now can a trainer screw up a good horse... sure! But I assure you Pletcher does not screw up good horses... I have seen his operation first hand.... UNBELIEVABLE! Now if other trainers could get the day rate that he does... then all of our operations would be as good... there should be a minimum day rate for trainers so that you don't have owners going on the cheap which translates into less for the horses... Pletcher just didn't have the winner yet.... Look at the trainers that have won but only once. What conclusions would you all draw from that? That for only one time they had what it takes or for that one time they had the perfect horse at the perfect time. You also must remember that horses can and will "cycle" that's why you pray that you catch them at their peek in the spring and that it lasts thru the triple crown. Horse training is one day at a time... even down to one minute at a time. So until you have given every day of every year to a string of horses.... don't be so judgemental. Only the racing gods know for sure!

I don't know of one trainer that is out to screw the bettors!

#38 05-10-2007, 11:06 AM

Maybe if Pletcher runs 20 in the derby next year he'll win.

jman5581 · #39 05-10-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

Sorry but I believe there isn't going to be a St. Louis Derby this year.

It's looking more and more that way.... from what I've heard.

Rupert Pupkin · #40 05-10-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

There's no doubt that Pletcher has been the dominant trainer in America in the past few years. But you're wrong. This is just like any other sport in that it's not enough to just get to a big day like the Derby or BC. You've got to show something on those days, especially if you're setting training records left and right, and this was as good a day as any for Pletcher to show something, and he didn't. He came up empty for whatever reason. Period.

You say, "You've got to show something on those days." He has to show something on those days, or else what? Or else the press will get on him? Or else people on this board will criticize him? Those are about the only ramifications I can think of. I doubt he will lose any owners. He really does not need to win any of these races right now. He will continue to make millions of dollars a year regardless and he will continue to be the leading trainer in the country.

I agree that he needs to win some of these races by the end of his career if he wants to go down in history as one of the all-time greats. As long as he wins one by the end of his career, he will be fine. I think time is on his side. All he has to do is win one in the next 30 years. In the meantime, the Pletcher Machine will continue to dominate, with or without a Derby win or a BC Classic win.