Why win and your in sucks...

[Pedigree Ann]

If they really would make it 'win and you're in' it might be a useful concept. But it isn't truly. It's 'win and if you are nominated you are in." A true 'win and in' wherein a non-nominated horse could earn a place in the field without having to pay a third of the winning purse to get in, that would be a plus for the BC.

It would encourage horses like Redattore (who was the best US-based turf miler) to run. Redattore was foaled in Brazil, where breeders could care less about about nominating to a Northern Hemisphere series of no benefit to them. This is true generally in the Southern Hemisphere breeding countries. It takes an owner with deep pockets to be able to pony up to run an Invasor or Bayakoa. The idea should to get the best runners possible in the race, not just the best nominated runners.

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

If they really would make it 'win and you're in' it might be a useful concept. But it isn't truly. It's 'win and if you are nominated you are in." A true 'win and in' wherein a non-nominated horse could earn a place in the field without having to pay a third of the winning purse to get in, that would be a plus for the BC.

It would encourage horses like Redattore (who was the best US-based turf miler) to run. Redattore was foaled in Brazil, where breeders could care less about about nominating to a Northern Hemisphere series of no benefit to them. This is true generally in the Southern Hemisphere breeding countries. It takes an owner with deep pockets to be able to pony up to run an Invasor or Bayakoa. The idea should to get the best runners possible in the race, not just the best nominated runners.

Even a better concept. This could give some of the blue collar guys a chance to crash the party. You earn BC eligiable and dont just buy it.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by jpops757

Even a better concept. This could give some of the blue collar guys a chance to crash the party. You earn BC eligiable and dont just buy it.

The purses are paid by nomination fees, so I'm not sure those that paid would be very happy with this solution.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jpops757

Do you really think a win and you are in winner will knock out a deserving entrant? If he will be 30/1, all he will do is keep another 30/1 horse out. This is a great addition to the process of filling the entries. Everyone has the same option of preparing there horses for these races.

The possibility certainly exists. Maybe not this race or this year but just wait until a deserving horse is left out.
I hardly think there was a problem filling the entry box at the Breeders Cup.

The whole thing is a half hearted marketing ploy that diminishes the worth of many races that aren't designated "win and your in". The winner of the Phoenix for example has even less credentials than Purim but he is in (though I dont believe he is nominated). Why should the winner of a weak grade 3 be automatically in while the winners of higher graded, more contentious races are possibly left out?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The possibility certainly exists. Maybe not this race or this year but just wait until a deserving horse is left out.
I hardly think there was a problem filling the entry box at the Breeders Cup.

The whole thing is a half hearted marketing ploy that diminishes the worth of many races that aren't designated "win and your in". The winner of the Phoenix for example has even less credentials than Purim but he is in (though I dont believe he is nominated). Why should the winner of a weak grade 3 be automatically in while the winners of higher graded, more contentious races are possibly left out?

Isn't the worst part of WAYI that horses that win on polytrack, which is nothing like dirt, get into dirt races? You'd never see a horse win a dirt race be automatically in the Turf Mile, so why is this way considered OK? Of course I realize it is because they want people to believe it is dirt.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Isn't the worst part of WAYI that horses that win on polytrack, which is nothing like dirt, get into dirt races? You'd never see a horse win a dirt race be automatically in the Turf Mile, so why is this way considered OK? Of course I realize it is because they want people to believe it is dirt.

I just dont think there should be"qualifiers" unless they are part of a well thought out series of races instead of just these seemingly random events. And while I dont necessarily agree with your polytrack/dirt take (when its held at a Polytrack couldnt the opposite argument be made?) I think there is an issue when a mile turf race like the First Lady is a qualifier for a 1 3/8th race like the FM BC turf. If there was one WAYI event for each BC race on the same surface, at the same distance I think the idea may be a little more plausible. However with all the tracks clammoring for these races, which are now given an overstated sense of importance, we may wind up with as much as 1/2 the fields mad eup of WAYI horses which most certainly will lead to more deserving horses being left out. Or worse we could wind up with a series of Breeders Cup qualifier days that will really degrade a lot of historically important stakes that wont be included.

[ceejay]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Of course I realize it is because they want people to believe it is dirt.

And as us geologists often say "believing is seeing." Can you say "Off Duty?" At least it's unlikely he'll go I suspect with the $180K supplement....

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The possibility certainly exists. Maybe not this race or this year but just wait until a deserving horse is left out.
I hardly think there was a problem filling the entry box at the Breeders Cup.

The whole thing is a half hearted marketing ploy that diminishes the worth of many races that aren't designated "win and your in". The winner of the Phoenix for example has even less credentials than Purim but he is in (though I dont believe he is nominated). Why should the winner of a weak grade 3 be automatically in while the winners of higher graded, more contentious races are possibly left out?

Isn't that exactly why Purim is a perfect horse for a WAYI kind of thing? Ran down a pretty solid bunch of turf milers in a GI race three weeks out from the BC, yet he shouldn't be in? He basically fits your "winners of higher graded, more contentious races" qualification to a tee.

Miesque's Approval didn't look too deserving last year. That ended up well.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Isn't that exactly why Purim is a perfect horse for a WAYI kind of thing? Ran down a pretty solid bunch of turf milers in a GI race three weeks out from the BC, yet he shouldn't be in? He basically fits your "winners of higher graded, more contentious races" qualification to a tee.

Miesque's Approval didn't look too deserving last year. That ended up well.

Miesque's Approval and Purim is a bad comparison. Miesque's Approval was a multiple graded stakes winner in '06, he had beaten the previous year's BC Mile champion and had only lost in the Shadwell and against English Channel early in the year at Gulfstream. He had every right to be in the BC Mile.

NT

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Miesque's Approval and Purim is a bad comparison. Miesque's Approval was a multiple graded stakes winner in '06, he had beaten the previous year's BC Mile champion and had only lost in the Shadwell and against English Channel early in the year at Gulfstream. He had every right to be in the BC Mile.

NT

And so does Purim. I'm hard pressed to find many more important or prestigious turf miles in the country throughout the year. Maybe he's a Keeneland specialist, but nearly snagging the Maker's Mark and then taking down the Shadwell mile would make any horse a legit BC entrant. If any other horse had that same record in big turf miles this year, nobody would have any problem with that horse making the BC starting gate.

Purim deserves it. I only used Miesque's Approval because part of the complaining earlier in the thread was that Purim will be a 30-1 shot in the Mile, allegedly giving him the chance to knock a "more deserving" horse out of the field. Not every horse can be a favorite, and Miesque's Approval certainly didn't look like the most likely winner in the BC Mile, just like Purim won't, but that doesn't make him unqualified to be a part of the field after an effort like Saturday's.

[Danzig]

i guess making it an invitational wouldn't work?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Isn't that exactly why Purim is a perfect horse for a WAYI kind of thing? Ran down a pretty solid bunch of turf milers in a GI race three weeks out from the BC, yet he shouldn't be in? He basically fits your "winners of higher graded, more contentious races" qualification to a tee.

Miesque's Approval didn't look too deserving last year. That ended up well.

And he is a perfect example of how winning one race that is designated as a "special race" suddenly becomes more important that the rest of the years accomplishments...

Maybe Purim isn't the ideal example but his win in this race is now much more important than the horse who won the Shoemaker, Firecracker, Makers Mark or any other important mile race. What if the full compliment of Euros come and a couple of Discreet cat or Hard Spun types enter in the turf mile. Then we are down to 4 or 5 American turf milers. If you get 2 longshot WAYI winners than you are down to possibly 2 or 3 spots open. That is good? Longshots getting preferential treatment into our premier races is not a good idea in my mind...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And he is a perfect example of how winning one race that is designated as a "special race" suddenly becomes more important that the rest of the years accomplishments...

Maybe Purim isn't the ideal example but his win in this race is now much more important than the horse who won the Shoemaker, Firecracker, Makers Mark or any other important mile race. What if the full compliment of Euros come and a couple of Discreet cat or Hard Spun types enter in the turf mile. Then we are down to 4 or 5 American turf milers. If you get 2 longshot WAYI winners than you are down to possibly 2 or 3 spots open. That is good? Longshots getting preferential treatment into our premier races is not a good idea in my mind...

Well maybe we look at the Shadwell Mile differently. It didn't take a "WAYI" designation for me to think that it's one of the most important grass mile races in America. Regardless of a gimmicky marketing idea, the Shadwell Mile winner should be a part of the BC Mile field no matter what.

While I understand your concern about an extremely deserving horse being left out, your doomsday scenario is going to need a whole lot of wacky entrants for Purim to actually knock a rock-solid better horse out of the field. So what if he was 20-1 in that race? Look at his PPs, TGs, etc. He had some darkened form over his last few, but his fastest and best races were exactly on par with the favorites in that field the other day.

Really, are you that worried that this year's version of Sleeping Indian is going to get left out of the field because Purim ran his eyeballs out a few times this year, and most importantly on Saturday? I'm willing to bet that once entries are drawn for the mile, it won't be Purim who will seem the most questionable of the lot.

[SentToStud]

Purim deserves to be in as much as any other G 1 mile turf winner does. What is a crime is that the sprint they ran at Keeneland is one of the magic races. I believe more BC Sprint winners have prepped at Philly Park than Keeneland. Whichever way, guys with initials for first names and roman numerals for last names are going to do whatever benefits themselves.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well maybe we look at the Shadwell Mile differently. It didn't take a "WAYI" designation for me to think that it's one of the most important grass mile races in America. Regardless of a gimmicky marketing idea, the Shadwell Mile winner should be a part of the BC Mile field no matter what.

While I understand your concern about an extremely deserving horse being left out, your doomsday scenario is going to need a whole lot of wacky entrants for Purim to actually knock a rock-solid better horse out of the field. So what if he was 20-1 in that race? Look at his PPs, TGs, etc. He had some darkened form over his last few, but his fastest and best races were exactly on par with the favorites in that field the other day.

Really, are you that worried that this year's version of Sleeping Indian is going to get left out of the field because Purim ran his eyeballs out a few times this year, and most importantly on Saturday? I'm willing to bet that once entries are drawn for the mile, it won't be Purim who will seem the most questionable of the lot.

Brian the problem is that there are already 4 qualifiers (WAYI) for the turf mile. What if (when?) they expand the program to 6 or 7 races and you get a couple of bombs winning under adverse weather conditions or other outside factors? Then there may be zero spots open. To me it is a bad idea using gimmicks to award spots in your best races which will serve to further deteroriate our non-Breeders Cup stakes. The difference between the NCAA tourney (which was the idea behind it) and this is that the longshot teams that win the conference tourneys rarely knock out teams with a chance to actually win it all because there are 65 spots where here there are less than 7 in the turf races. The Phoenix winner may be a better example.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Brian the problem is that there are already 4 qualifiers (WAYI) for the turf mile. What if (when?) they expand the program to 6 or 7 races and you get a couple of bombs winning under adverse weather conditions or other outside factors? Then there may be zero spots open. To me it is a bad idea using gimmicks to award spots in your best races which will serve to further deteroriate our non-Breeders Cup stakes. The difference between the NCAA tourney (which was the idea behind it) and this is that the longshot teams that win the conference tourneys rarely knock out teams with a chance to actually win it all because there are 65 spots where here there are less than 7 in the turf races. The Phoenix winner may be a better example.

Ok, that makes it a bit different. If the idea is mainly that you're against WAYI on principle, that's a different story. For a horse like Off Duty, that raises a valid and important point. I guess I just think you used the wrong example of why WAYI sucks. I think it's a stupid idea, because the winner of almost all of these races will generally get into the BC field of the corresponding race on their own merits.

I just think that to try to imply that Purim is only deserving of being in the BC Mile because of WAYI, and not because of the fact that he ran a huge race in a huge GI three weeks out from the BC is a bit unfair given that had Purim run well a few starts before, and gone off at 9/2, nobody would even be having this conversation.

I mean, if Purim shouldn't get in (though I know you said that maybe you chose the wrong race to object to), then Discreet Cat should be left out of any oversubscribed field, right? No stakes wins this year. No wins at all this year. You mentioned him in your post two back. If he is allowed in any BC race just based on his form from last year, I think we should be more than capable of finding reasons for a Grade I winner in October to be allowed into the BC Mile, ya know?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Ok, that makes it a bit different. If the idea is mainly that you're against WAYI on principle, that's a different story. For a horse like Off Duty, that raises a valid and important point. I guess I just think you used the wrong example of why WAYI sucks. I think it's a stupid idea, because the winner of almost all of these races will generally get into the BC field of the corresponding race on their own merits.

I just think that to try to imply that Purim is only deserving of being in the BC Mile because of WAYI, and not because of the fact that he ran a huge race in a huge GI three weeks out from the BC is a bit unfair given that had Purim run well a few starts before, and gone off at 9/2, nobody would even be having this conversation.

I mean, if Purim shouldn't get in (though I know you said that maybe you chose the wrong race to object to), then Discreet Cat should be left out of any oversubscribed field, right? No stakes wins this year. No wins at all this year. You mentioned him in your post two back. If he is allowed in any BC race just based on his form from last year, I think we should be more than capable of finding reasons for a Grade I winner in October to be allowed into the BC Mile, ya know?

I just see troubling times ahead in the Breeders Cupazitation of the racing world. If the whole premise was to get the best fields together throughout the year as a lead up to the BC I could see the value in it. But to randomly just award spots in hopes of creating "excitement" of "dark horses" is stupid.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Miesque's Approval and Purim is a bad comparison. Miesque's Approval was a multiple graded stakes winner in '06, he had beaten the previous year's BC Mile champion and had only lost in the Shadwell and against English Channel early in the year at Gulfstream. He had every right to be in the BC Mile.

NT

This is strictly from memory, so don't shoot me if I am wrong, but didn't Miesque's Approval lose while available for a tag at Saratoga earlier that year? I know for sure he ran and lost in a claiming race at Saratoga, because I bet him, but I am unsure if it was '05 or '06.

Regardless, the WAYI concept is a marketing ploy as everyone associated with the idea will tell you flat out. It is nothing more than that so why is everyone getting so worked up over it? Don't the majority of these horses that win these late season races leading up to the Cup end up in the race regardless? How many of the WAYI horses would not be going without the automatic berth?

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It was '05.

It was starting to feel that way the more I thought about it because he was still with Mott at that point, right?

Thanks

[_ed_]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

A true 'win and in' wherein a non-nominated horse could earn a place in the field without having to pay a third of the winning purse to get in, that would be a plus for the BC.

I love this idea.