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#21
10-09-2014, 11:27 AM
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#22
10-09-2014, 11:38 AM
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#23
10-09-2014, 11:40 AM
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I think Jerry Brown, and even myself, know more about measuring horse speed than vets do.
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#24
10-09-2014, 11:44 AM
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if people don't wish to use it on their horses, they don't have to. but it is helpful to many horses, and should be allowed. Quote:
horses may not bleed for some time, and then suddenly they do. that's why people use lasix, they have no way of knowing when it'll happen to a horse. read the study, seriously.
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#25
10-09-2014, 11:55 AM
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#26
10-09-2014, 12:01 PM
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There is ample evidence if people bother to look. As a bettor, I can quantify it. Horses that don't bleed run faster with Lasix than without. It isn't even really debatable. Of course horses are individuals and the effect isn't the same on all of them, and a scant few run worse. But by and large, it improves performance. As for the preventative aspect, wasn't a study just released that purported to prove only a very few really need Lasix long term, and that bleeding doesn't hinder long term performance? http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...six-not-needed I take them all with a grain of salt because everyone has an agenda. My agenda is to make money betting. It may be selfish, but it isn't slanted to one cause or the other. I look at it objectively. Here is an example that won't happen because I think Goldencents is going in the BC Mile. If he met Rich Tapestry again, after his trip last time, I'd bet him in a second over Rich Tapestry. But, if Rich Tapestry were to add Lasix, I'd bet him. I've been doing this long enough to know Lasix makes a difference, and the difference is not heads or noses but lengths.
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#27
10-09-2014, 07:30 PM
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#28
10-09-2014, 08:12 PM
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#29
10-09-2014, 09:30 PM
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To me, Lasix is to racehorses as vaccines are to people. It's not perfect, it doesn't work in 100 percent of recipients, but it's the best option we have. And no, not every horse is going to have an EIPH episode, just as not every unvaccinated person is going to get chicken pox. And the majority of diseases we vaccinate kids against aren't usually fatal. But they can be, just as EIPH can be, and why take the risk of a horse dropping dead from EIPH in the middle of a race when there's a cheap and easy way of reducing the chance that will happen? We can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I think we also dance around the issue that when we race horses, we are pushing them past what they evolved to do. And that's the point of athletics- challenging the body to its physical limit. But we get weird about it when it's animals- we fret about consent, and start to ask if what we do is cruelty (never mind that it's just about impossible to get a 1000 pound animal to do something it doesn't want to do). And that's the really hard part of the argument- if you say that really, most horses in hard athletic work are going to bleed in the lungs, even if only slightly, then the question we have to ask is, is it right to be racing them at all? Of course, I think it's fine to train animals in athletic endeavors, but I think we have a responsibility to do the best we can to protect their bodies against the inevitable damage athletic careers will do. And I also think it's okay for trainers to make the decision not to use Lasix, if they feel it's in the best interests of their horse's health (like when Larry Jones felt Havre de Grace was having a bad reaction to it. Perfect, good, enemies and all that).
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Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray Last edited by GenuineRisk : 10-09-2014 at 10:55 PM. Reason: agh! typos.
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#30
10-09-2014, 10:04 PM
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#31
10-09-2014, 10:05 PM
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#32
10-09-2014, 10:22 PM
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As I said in this thread, I'm fine with bleeders using Lasix, just make sure they are penalized somewhat for doing so to level the playing field. Forget me, a guy as respected as Jerry Brown is saying that Lasix gives an edge. Does that carry no weight?
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#33
10-09-2014, 11:04 PM
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Harness racing article but addresses the arguments as they pertain to thoroughbreds also:
http://www.harnesslink.com/News/Bann...r-horses-97434
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Gentlemen! We're burning daylight! Riders up! -Bill Murray
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#34
10-09-2014, 11:18 PM
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#35
10-10-2014, 08:33 AM
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you'd rather it not be given because you feel it gives an edge, knowing that not using it would cause bleeders to bleed worse, and could cause serious injury or death? the study basically said it levels the playing field for bleeders, because by being given it, they can run TO their ability-not beyond it. I'd like to see a similar study done under racing conditions that would show me that it improves a non-bleeder. and then there's the issue of a non-bleeder becoming one. I'd rather prevent an episode than chance it-I'm not the one taking the risk, the horse is. since you believe it does give an edge, I'm sure you bet accordingly. that's why the info is given, so you know. from the study: Results—Horses were substantially more likely to develop EIPH (severity score ≥ 1; odds ratio, 3.3 to 4.4) or moderate to severe EIPH (severity score ≥ 2; odds ratio, 6.9 to 11.0) following administration of saline solution than following administration of furosemide. At least 80% of racehorses can be expected to develop the condition at some time during their career,1,2 approximately 60% of sudden deaths during racing have been attributed to pulmonary hemorrhage, 2 severe EIPH has been shown to adversely affect race performance,3 and EIPH is believed to adversely affect the overall health of racehorses. so, we should tell those 80% of horses 'too bad'? can't use it on you because it might give another horse an edge?
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#36
10-10-2014, 12:48 PM
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http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_lasix_question.pdf
• Much has been made of the effects of weight loss on an athlete’s performance. The weight loss effect of Lasix is comparable to the weight loss a horse might experience if denied hay and water for 24 to 48 hours before a race, as was often the practice before the advent of Lasix. While Lasix use is strictly controlled, there is no oversight for if or when a trainer takes away a horse's nutrients. Will this necessitate the introduction of security to ensure that all trainers observe the same protocol? Will it lead to headlines proclaiming, “Horses Starved and Dehydrated Before They Race”? • Lasix does not allow a horse to perform beyond its peak natural ability. It alleviates, but does not eliminate, a condition that hampers peak performance. Anecdotally, historically and scientifically, it has been demonstrated clearly that EIPH adversely affects performance. Horses run slower when they bleed. Anecdotally, historically and scientifically, it has been demonstrated clearly that Lasix is significantly effective in minimizing EIPH. The refusal to connect these dots is the height of, “Don’t confuse us with the facts.” 6) Does Lasix mask other medications? • During the International Summit on Race Day Medication, EIPH and the Racehorse, Dr. Richard Sams, PhD, director of HFL Sport Science Inc. in Lexington, stated that, after the American Association of Equine Practitioners came up with a universally accepted standard of practice for Lasix in 1983--recommending that it be administered intravenously and at a time four hours prior to a race--the concern that Lasix could affect the detectability of other medications was addressed. “That concern is largely eliminated when [Lasix] is administered in a tightly controlled environment, as it is in the United States,” Dr. Sams said. He concluded, “I don’t refer to [Lasix] as a masking agent. It’s impact on post-race testing is not very significant.” 17 • In an article in Daily Racing Form, Steven Crist said, “The whole issue of whether Lasix can mask other drugs was a valid concern a generation ago--perhaps the best reason to oppose its use--but from all veterinary accounts this is now a non-issue. The vastly increased precision of testing, and a greater reliance on plasma rather than urine tests, has made this a moot point.”
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#37
10-10-2014, 12:49 PM
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2) They race without Lasix in Europe, in Hong Kong, in Japan. Why do we need it in the U.S.?
• Outside of the United States, the majority of racing jurisdictions still use archaic medical science when it comes to an official diagnosis of EIPH.6 If a horse does not show evidence of epistaxis (bleeding from one or both nostrils), they are not considered bleeders. With the modern technology available to aid in diagnosis, this is the medical equivalent of refusing to use an X-ray machine to diagnose fractures. It is irresponsible to wait for a horse to be in crisis to make a diagnosis. • Outside the United States, the majority of racing jurisdictions fail to officially acknowledge the prevalence of EIPH, despite the incontrovertible evidence that it affects the majority of horses. BUT, trainers in Europe and Australia use Lasix during training on a regular basis. The trainers acknowledge its effectiveness in treating EIPH-- the ONLY motivation for using Lasix during morning workouts is the alleviation of EIPH.
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Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. Abraham Lincoln
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#38
10-11-2014, 11:43 AM
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Except cmorioles hasn't said that he'd rather see it not given. Not from what I've been reading anyway. He said he would just rather there be a penalty given to those that use it. The horse that just came to my mind is Smarty Jones. If memory serves me right, John Servis did exactly as cmorioles is talking about here. He felt forced to take it to make sure his horse was competing on an even playing field even though his horse wasn't a bleeder. If there was a weight penalty in place instead, perhaps Servis doesn't add the drug because the penalty would have the effect of leveling the playing field.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#39
10-11-2014, 11:44 AM
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#40
10-11-2014, 11:49 AM
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I don't buy the preventative argument. I've been around this game a long time. Never once was this mentioned when Lasix was being legalized. It was going to be a savior drug that helped known bleeders compete more often. The EXACT opposite has happened. Like I said, I can live with Lasix for known bleeders, but they should be penalized. It clearly gives an edge. If you don't believe me, ask Jerry Brown. Like I just said in another post, in this day and age, if you have to drug nearly every horse so they can compete, the sport won't be around long. I'd bet anything on that.
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