Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

[dalakhani]

lava man?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

lava man?

If the criteria is three surfaces within one state then he wins.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If the criteria is three surfaces within one state then he wins.

You be nice to Lava Man!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

lava man?

He was killer on Hollywood Park's turf course anyway.

He's tricky because a horse like Gentlemen was a better dirt horse and a better turf horse ... but Lava Man came at a down time in the quality of racing and that allowed him to have a little better looking resume than a horse like Gentlemen.

Atticus is interesting ... in his final 2 career starts, he won the Grade 2 Arcadia on the turf by 3 lengths with a 115 Beyer ... than won the Grade 1 Oaklawn Park Handicap on the dirt by 3 lengths with a 114 Beyer. He was 2nd in Europe in a Gr 1 English Derby prep as a 3yo as well... but possibly didn't do enough to slip in a top 20.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by cakes44

How far down the list would Electrocutionist be?

He's in the top 20 mix ... excellent turf horse with two ok dirt wins ... but beating Brass Hat and Wilko in workmanlike fashion only gets you so far.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Elusive Quality is like a top 5-to-10 two-surface horse based on speed figures ... but would probably be impossible to put in the top 500 because of his record.

Ultimate all-time poster horse for big speed figures against cheap horses and big flops in stakes.

Elusive Quality ran a 122 Beyer on dirt as a 4yo and a 123 on dirt the next year. He also ran a 112 on turf - only a 113 by Da Hoss in the Breeders Cup Mile was higher on turf that year.

The problem is that Elusive Quality never won a stakes race of any kind on dirt - and never won anything more than a Grade 3 on turf. Good sire though - he has a Kentucky Derby winner in Smarty Jones and a BC Classic winner in Raven's Pass .. as well as a top flight 3yo this year in Quality Road.

[Antitrust32]

einstein?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

He's top 5 three surfaces for sure.

Nice Brazil bred... but I'd give a slight edge to the Brazil bred Sandpit over Einstein.

[DaTruth]

How about Blushing John, who just falls within the 20 year limit.

Winner of the French "2,000 guineas."

Picked up an Eclipse as champ older horse in U.S. as a 4yo by winning the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pimlico Special, and finishing 3rd behind Easy Goer and Sunday Silence in the BCC.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by smuthg

I can't remember, were any of Invasor's wins in South America on the turf? What about Midnight Lute? Great on Dirt and a Breeders' Cup Sprint winner on both Dirt and "pro-ride"...

On the Barbaro front, how many exclusively US based horses would be placed ahead of him?

No and No with Invasor and ML.

However ... Midnight Lute and Raven's Pass have the two best cases for syth and something else.

Obviously dirt and syn for ML and turf and syn for RP. Though, that wasn't what I intended to rate.

As for Barbaro ... it really boils down to two questions. 1.) are you rating based on what he might have done or what he actually did? 2.) Do you discredit 2yo turf racing because it's never mattered much here?

Based on how you answer those two questions ... you'll either have very few exclusive US horses ahead of him or many.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

How about Blushing John, who just falls within the 20 year limit.

Winner of the French "2,000 guineas."

Picked up an Eclipse as champ older horse in U.S. as a 4yo by winning the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pimlico Special, and finishing 3rd behind Easy Goer and Sunday Silence in the BCC.

Good call on him ... but his last race was '89 and I intended for '90 to be the cutoff.

Ibn Bey would work though ... 2nd to Unbridled in the '90 BC Classic and a pretty good turf resume in Europe ... though I'd be lying through my teeth if I said I saw any of his Euro turf races - or even could gauge him.

Jolypha was also 3rd in the BC Classic to AP Indy as a 3yo filly ... and was a multiple Group 1 winner in France before that. She lost too much tarnish though because she was a bust with Bobby Frankel as a 4yo.

[DaTruth]

Would Mecke be included in an all-American top 20? Won the Super Derby, Arlington Million, and Early Times Classic. For international flair, he finished second and third in the Rothman's.

[DaTruth]

Da Hoss. Smoking fast in Arizona. Graded stakes winner on dirt. Two time Mile champ.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Mecke was also beaten only 3 lengths in the Kentucky Derby.

He certainly would be in the hunt in an all-american top 20... probably a big longshot to make an overall top 20 though. He didn't have the flashiest figures .. and he was from a time when more top horses did.

Da Hoss was beaten in his final 5 dirt tries .. and though he ran fast at Turf Paradice.. that track is like the Bonneville Salt Flats. Still .. he had a couple nice 2nds on dirt and was a super turf miler.

Lure was a little better as both a turf horse and a dirt horse though IMO.

[jjf1031]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He's top 5 three surfaces for sure.

Nice Brazil bred... but I'd give a slight edge to the Brazil bred Sandpit over Einstein.

Just going to mention Sandpit...multiple G1 turf and G1 placed on dirt in DWC and I believe Santa Anita Handicap...a win though in one of those dirt races would have moved him up

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Lure was a little better as both a turf horse and a dirt horse though IMO.

Agree with you about Lure, although he was defeated by la-bred Nijinsky's Gold as his career was winding down.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I would have loved to have seen Skip Away run on the turf.

He was soundly beaten in his debut going 5fs to Cold Snap on the dirt. He made his 2nd start in a stake race going 5fs on the turf - and was running over the top of horses late but finished a good 2nd to Cold Snap.

That was it for his career on turf.

His 5f turf race was much better than his 5f dirt race ... and while a terrible sire ... his offspring do a lot better on turf and synthetic than dirt.

Considering he was a true all-time great on dirt ... I wouldn't be shocked if he would have been an outstanding turf horse as well if given the chance.

[KirisClown]

Escena was decent on both surfaces..

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

#1. Dubai Millennium: Huge 6 length Dubai World Cup win in what certainly would have earned a Beyer figure in the 122 to 127 range. All 9 career wins coming by 2.5 lengths or more .. the excellent Slickly closest to him in victory. Only career defeat came at 12fs in the English Derby.

#2. Swain: Might be unpopular to rate so high considering he never actually won on dirt. In two dirt tries, he was 2nd beaten a nose to Silver Charm in the Dubai World Cup and 3rd beaten a length to Awesome Again and Silver Charm in the greatest Breeders Cup Classic field ever.

However, he came away from both defeats as the no doubt about it best horse on that day. In the Dubai World Cup, he had to overcome making his first start off an almost 6 month layoff at 10fs. In the Breeders Cup Classic, Dettori took him to the outside fence out of fear of making eye contact with Silver Charm. An all-time dumb ride.

Won 10 of 20 on turf and ITM in 18 of 20 including races like the Arc and BC Turf. Was 3rd to Lammtarra in the Arc as an undefeated 3yo .. made final career start in BC Classic at age 6.

#3. Singspeil: Won only career dirt start in the Dubai World Cup by just over a length while making his first start off a layoff. The 2nd place finisher Siphon won the Santa Anita Handicap by 3 lengths in his previous start with a 120 Beyer. After the loss to Singspeil - Siphon returned to America and ran Beyers of 115 and 117 in his next two starts.

Final 7 starts of Singspeil's career: Win in the Canadian International over Chief Bearhardt. 2nd in the Breeders Cup Turf. Win in the Japan Cup. Win in the Dubai World Cup. Win in the Group 1 Coronation. 4th in the King George and QE in a race won by Swain. And win in the Juddmonte International.

#4. Candy Ride: Perfect 6-for-6. Multiple Group 1 winner on turf in South America. Both wins coming by 8 lengths. In his 3rd start, he took a Group 1 getting a mile in 1:31 flat and destroying a 15 horse field.

Won his only US turf race in the American Handicap. The horse who finished 2nd came back 3 weeks later to win the Grade 1 Eddie Reed by 5 lengths. CR finished his career with a 123 Beyer thumping of Medaglia D'Oro in a race where MDO was basically allowed to make his own pace - and was just overpowered by CR on the far turn.


#5. Giant's Causeway: Won 5 straight Group 1's on turf in Europe as a 3yo. Close 2nd to Tiznow in the BC Classic in his only dirt start.

Gets slight edge over Arc winner Sakhee because I believe Tiznow was a better horse late at age 3 than he was at age 4 and Sakhee was taken to the woodshed by Street Cry in the DWC.


All of these horses started off in a different country. If you elimanted foreign horses ... you'd have a pretty sad collection. You'd almost be left talking about Hollywood Wildcat and her son War Chant. If you did a top 20, I think at least 16 or 17 would have started off in a different country.

Heck, if Horse Chestnut steals the 20 spot, Africa may have as many horses on there as the United States.

I just watched the replay of the Candy Ride Pacific Classic, What a freak? The last horse we saw even close to him was Ghostzapper, and Im not sure Candy Ride wouldnt BLOW GHOSTZAPPER AWAY.

[dalakhani]

mizzen mast