Stress Kills: Ken Lay Dead at 64

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

we just couldent find em..the inbreeding ruined the depth perc...lol

[Rupert Pupkin]

How do we know he really died? When you have a lot of money, you can pay people off. Maybe he's not really dead. Maybe they bought a cadavre and then paid off the coroner to falsely i.d. the cadavre as Lay. They will probably quickly cremate him so that nobody can check dental records. Meanwhile, Lay is on a private jet on his way to Switzerland.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I appreciate your open heart on it, Somer, but I'm with Boldruler on this one. I feel like he escaped justice and it makes... me... mad... a lot of people lost a lot of money and are going to be working for the rest of their lives, with no retirement possible, because of this man. I don't think death is the worst of all possible fates-- he got off easy. I really wish I believed in hell.

But Eleanor Roosevelt is still da bomb and that is an excellent quote- thanks for posting it!

Lay was a crook ... but I think you don't understand the pension situation.

The only money that was lost was the value of the stock which was given by Enron to their employee pension plan. None of the Enron employees lost money of their own ... they only lost their projected share of the paper value of the stock which was given to the plan.

And Eleanor Roosevelt was about the silliest and most naive little tall rich girl who was ever publicly humiliated by a cousin/husband.

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

we just couldent find em..the inbreeding ruined the depth perc...lol

Speaking of inbreeding ... how about Franklin Roosevelt and cousin Eleanor Roosevelt?

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

...you are absolutely hilarious....I have a new nickname for you and it is called IGNITOR.....you are trying really hard for an exchange, but I won't entertain it...don't put words in my mouth about 'gloating over his death'....I am not a fan of ANYONE dying (well, unless it is Bin Laden) and I simply stated his place in hostory as a business man - not a person....I curtiously gave him an RIP...I'm not saying he deserved to die for being a corrupt business man..obviously, nobody deserves to die for that....I just found it rather interesting that he croaked a few years removed from this famous scandal......because of him, most corporations are now mandated for their employees to partcipate in the Sarbanes-Oxley Act training of business ethics.....I've had to do it and it is not a pleasant usage of your time at work...

Joel you completely are misreading what I said and putting an intent on it that never existed. I feel pretty much the same as you(and would also exult in Bin laden getting the gas pipe) in regards to your take on the situation.
But you must understand my smile in regards to your use of Karma. I stand by what i said, if I was a believer in Karma I don't think I would be happy about another guy dying. I'm no bleeding heart, and I do know the extent of the destruction he caused in people's lives, but he underwent the ultimate fall from grace. He went from being wealthy beyond his wildest dreams and having all the pleasures of life and respect from everyone to complete public humiliation and awoke every morning facing the thought of prison the rest of his life. Its not up to me to judge the guy but I think he suffered plenty before he departed and I'm not gonna gloat.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I appreciate your open heart on it, Somer, but I'm with Boldruler on this one. I feel like he escaped justice and it makes... me... mad... a lot of people lost a lot of money and are going to be working for the rest of their lives, with no retirement possible, because of this man. I don't think death is the worst of all possible fates-- he got off easy. I really wish I believed in hell.

But Eleanor Roosevelt is still da bomb and that is an excellent quote- thanks for posting it!

Well, I don't believe in hell either, at least not the Christian/Jewish one, but I do believe in karma and I do believe his soul will return and he will reap the fruits of his actions the next time around so the scales are not yet balanced. Another quote, this time from Fidel Castro...when asked whether he was happy upon hearing of the murder of President Kennedy, he responded, "No, I feel sadness over his death; it's governments and not men who are the enemy".

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

We are talking about different things....I have no love for what the man did, I know what it's like to be taken advantage of by folks you trust and to suddenly find yourself with nothing...believe me! My only point was clearly stated...there is no joy in the death of a man/woman!

It is too bad he didn't get to live the ripe old age of 90.....IN JAIL.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

The guy stole a fortune from people, ruined their lives, and then put it all into life insurance and annuities instead of giving it back. If he admitted to what he did and gave back the money then I might have a little sympathy. The fact is he was a criminal right up until the day he died. The guy is worse than garbage and so is his wife and family who will be living like royalty on money they stole from working people.

He'll be judged by someone higher up than yourself...

Until then, don't judge.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

He'll be judged by someone higher up than yourself...

Until then, don't judge.

Cajun I don't get into my religious beliefs or much personal on here but you summed up my thoughts exactly. If you asked me whether I was more worried about being judged by some folks on the derbytrail message board or God, I'd have to say that one is a joke and the other is the most serious of all matters.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Cajun I don't get into my religious beliefs or much personal on here but you summed up my thoughts exactly. If you asked me whether I was more worried about being judged by some folks on the derbytrail message board or God, I'd have to say that one is a joke and the other is the most serious of all matters.

Agreed. I don't wish death upon anyone... it's not my place to decide someone's punishment. I couldn't stand the guy, but I believe there is good even in people that are evil (although we don't always see it.)

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

He'll be judged by someone higher up than yourself...

Until then, don't judge.

Lets hope so. I am a deist and tend not to believe in an afterlife but it would be nice if there was one. Sadly, he will probably just rot in the ground.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Well, I don't believe in hell either, at least not the Christian/Jewish one, but I do believe in karma and I do believe his soul will return and he will reap the fruits of his actions the next time around so the scales are not yet balanced. Another quote, this time from Fidel Castro...when asked whether he was happy upon hearing of the murder of President Kennedy, he responded, "No, I feel sadness over his death; it's governments and not men who are the enemy".

Fidel Castro? Lets stick to E. Roosevelt. Fidel is worse than Ken Lay, if that is possible.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Lets hope so. I am a deist and tend not to believe in an afterlife but it would be nice if there was one. Sadly, he will probably just rot in the ground.

Here is my opinion on that...

It is better to believe in something and THEN find out it isn't real than to NOT believe in something only to find out that it IS. Why not have your bases covered? JMO...

[2MinsToPost]

Man, a man is dead. He commited a crime(s) and was found guilty in a court of law. He was to be sentenced in October, punishment for his crime(s). He dies of a heart attack and leaves behind a family that will never see him again. I ask you this

Did he murder? Did he rape? I for one am not glad he died, but in all honesty, I don't care. I don't know him, just know of him. I feel for his family, loved ones. But in all honesty, depending on what you believe, he may or may not be in a better place. Let him be, it is not right at all to say the things that some are saying about someone who is dead and not of the likes of a terrorist, rapist, murderer etc..

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Lay was a crook ... but I think you don't understand the pension situation.

The only money that was lost was the value of the stock which was given by Enron to their employee pension plan. None of the Enron employees lost money of their own ... they only lost their projected share of the paper value of the stock which was given to the plan.

And Eleanor Roosevelt was about the silliest and most naive little tall rich girl who was ever publicly humiliated by a cousin/husband.

You don't seem to understand the stock market or pensions. The price was based on cooked books, people were buying or given something that wasn't really there in terms of value. The stock is part of compensation which means these people thought they were being paid more than they were actually getting. It is the equivalent of being paid and then finding out when you go to spend your money that the money you were paid with was counterfeit. He sold the worthless stock for millions when he knew it was worth nothing. Just to let you know, when someone sells it, someone is buying it. He sold worthless paper for millions.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You don't seem to understand the stock market or pensions. The price was based on cooked books, people were buying or given something that wasn't really there in terms of value. The stock is part of compensation which means these people thought they were being paid more than they were actually getting. It is the equivalent of being paid and then finding out when you go to spend your money that the money you were paid with was counterfeit. He sold the worthless stock for millions when he knew it was worth nothing. Just to let you know, when someone sells it, someone is buying it. He sold worthless paper for millions.

Unfortunately, that's the nature of this business too as a whole. (I work for a securities firm, so I would feel confident in saying that I know about the situation.) Because of this particular situation, we have the SEC breathing down our necks about everything.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Here is my opinion on that...

It is better to believe in something and THEN find out it isn't real than to NOT believe in something only to find out that it IS. Why not have your bases covered? JMO...

People should believe whatever they want. I have traveled abroad and seen terrible things and extreme poverty and it is hard for me to believe that if there was a just God that any american or person of wealth would find a place in heaven. There is slave labor throughout the world so americans can buy cheap goods, but nobody cares. The fact is that terrible things happen to good people and great things happen to terrible people. Sadly, life is 99% chance of where you are born and what talents/gifts you are born with. Just my opinion though.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

People should believe whatever they want. I have traveled abroad and seen terrible things and extreme poverty and it is hard for me to believe that if there was a just God that any american or person of wealth would find a place in heaven. There is slave labor throughout the world so americans can buy cheap goods, but nobody cares. The fact is that terrible things happen to good people and great things happen to terrible people. Sadly, life is 99% chance of where you are born and what talents/gifts you are born with. Just my opinion though.

Terrible things happen to good people, yes... but it doesn't always work out that way, ruler. Sometimes GREAT things happen to good people as well. Here is a quote that I always admired and believed in:

"It’s a wonder I haven’t abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

It’s utterly impossible for me to build my life on a foundation of chaos, suffering and death. I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness, I hear the approaching thunder that, one day, will destroy us too, I feel the suffering of millions. And yet, when I look up at the sky, I somehow feel that everything will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall end, that peace and tranquility will return once more." - Anne Frank

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Unfortunately, that's the nature of this business too as a whole. (I work for a securities firm, so I would feel confident in saying that I know about the situation.) Because of this particular situation, we have the SEC breathing down our necks about everything.

The markets are all about perceived value, that is why so many companies have high stock prices but aren't even close to profitable. They made Enron look a lot better than it was on paper, inflated the price, and dumped it. You probably already know this but the securities business has the rating agencies like Moodys and S&P that keep it as pretty honest. The hedge funds are the ones right now that are pretty sketchy because nobody really watches over them.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by boldruler

The markets are all about perceived value, that is why so many companies have high stock prices but aren't even close to profitable. They made Enron look a lot better than it was on paper, inflated the price, and dumped it. You probably already know this but the securities business has the rating agencies like Moodys and S&P that keep it as pretty honest. The hedge funds are the ones right now that are pretty sketchy because nobody really watches over them.

They're watching the variable AND fixed annuities as well as the hedge funds right now. We've done a few IPO's that are now being watched as well as a few hedge funds (Citigroup did an alternative hedge that isn't doing SQUAT right now.) Basically, people with more money at a younger age are going to go with a more aggressive fund or stock versus an S&P or Moody's AAA rated bond. That was the case with Enron. It's a huge gamble.