Who Will Be The Favorite? What Price?

[moses]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

To be fair, I think that was because of something else Vic did.

As curious as I am, I probably don’t want to know.

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I’m hesitant to acknowledge this look at me nonsense….but you gave up a mount in the Derby because you guys were too cheap to pay for a hotel and plane? He had no other mounts on the undercard?

A hotel and plane on that late notice would have been about $7500.

He didn't have anything on the undercard on Saturday. Only one longshot to ride in an allowance race on Friday.

With the heavy heads leaving for the weekend we were on a TON of favorites in So. Col.

This was before Joel was the dominant force he is now. He was just finding his way in Ca.

Bejarano and Gomez were riding a bunch of winners there too.
It was either spend $7500 and ride a 50-1. Or make $30,000 at SA.

It was a business decision. But IMO not a matter of being cheap.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

To be fair, I think that was because of something else Vic did.

It was. I went to work for Martin Garcia as well as Joel.

At first I don't think Joel minded.

But Ronny Ebanks and Joe Ferrer convinced him he should mind.

I'd often ask Joel if he was cool with it. And to tell me if he wasn't I'd drop Garcia.

He said it was no problem.

When Garcia won the Big Cap on MISREMEMBERED and Joel finished off the board on St. Trinians. He made the change.

I read the situation wrong.

Truth be told. I was totally burnt out. Didn't mind that much.

Never fun to get fired from anything. But my body was telling me to slow down. And so was my wife.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

A hotel and plane on that late notice would have been about $7500.

He didn't have anything on the undercard on Saturday. Only one longshot to ride in an allowance race on Friday.

With the heavy heads leaving for the weekend we were on a TON of favorites in So. Col.

This was before Joel was the dominant force he is now. He was just finding his way in Ca.

Bejarano and Gomez were riding a bunch of winners there too.
It was either spend $7500 and ride a 50-1. Or make $30,000 at SA.

It was a business decision. But IMO not a matter of being cheap.

So why not just say....it didn't make sense to ride Mine That Bird and give up the business we had in CA?

Frankly, the better story is "I told Chip that Joel would fire me if I gave up live mounts to go ride that ridiculous horse." Nobody would have blamed you for that.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

So why not just say....it didn't make sense to ride Mine That Bird and give up the business we had in CA?

Frankly, the better story is "I told Chip that Joel would fire me if I gave up live mounts to go ride that ridiculous horse." Nobody would have blamed you for that.

I thought that's what I was saying.

The way it literally went.

Brad Pegram was talking to Wolley who asked about Mike Smith. He was holding out for something better.

He handed me the phone. I told Wolley we'd go. Called him back to get a CC card or address for the invoice.

He said they weren't paying expenses.

Joel and I decided it was better to stay put.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

When Garcia won the Big Cap on MISREMEMBERED and Joel finished off the board on St. Trinians. He made the change.

The best part of this was some genius convinced the trainer of St. Trinians, a mare who was riding a 4 or 5 race win streak (all by open lengths) since coming to the US, to run her against males and stretch out an additional 1.5 furlongs in the Big Cap rather than waiting a week for the Santa Margarita.

In her prior start, St. Trinians had dusted BC Distaff winner Life Is Sweet (along with the place horse, Spinster winner Mushka) as well as Zardana, who one race later upset Rachel Alexandra in her 4yo debut at Fair Grounds.

I guess none of that was convincing enough to try Zenyatta coming off a 4 month layoff.

The connections were vindicated in the end, though. Zenyatta beat by a length or so the same horses in the Santa Margarita that St. Trinians was beating by 4-5 lengths. So it was wise to avoid a head-to-head matchup.

With an additional start under her belt (and with St. Trinians being knocked off form in the Big Cap), Zenyatta was also able to prove a 1/2 length best over St. Trinians a couple of months later in the Vanity. With such a dominating win, no one could be disappointed that there wasn't the early matchup at Santa Anita. And it's not like people were interested in some sort of rival for Zenyatta within her own division (since her connections refused to target the plentiful open 10 furlong races in CA).

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The best part of this was some genius convinced the trainer of St. Trinians, a mare who was riding a 4 or 5 race win streak (all by open lengths) since coming to the US, to run her against males and stretch out an additional 1.5 furlongs in the Big Cap rather than waiting a week for the Santa Margarita.

In her prior start, St. Trinians had dusted BC Distaff winner Life Is Sweet (along with the place horse, Spinster winner Mushka) as well as Zardana, who one race later upset Rachel Alexandra in her 4yo debut at Fair Grounds.

I guess none of that was convincing enough to try Zenyatta coming off a 4 month layoff.

The connections were vindicated in the end, though. Zenyatta beat by a length or so the same horses in the Santa Margarita that St. Trinians was beating by 4-5 lengths. So it was wise to avoid a head-to-head matchup.

With an additional start under her belt (and with St. Trinians being knocked off form in the Big Cap), Zenyatta was also able to prove a 1/2 length best over St. Trinians a couple of months later in the Vanity. With such a dominating win, no one could be disappointed that there wasn't the early matchup at Santa Anita. And it's not like people were interested in some sort of rival for Zenyatta within her own division (since her connections refused to target the plentiful open 10 furlong races in CA).

That genius was partially me. I suggested to Mike Mitchell he look long and hard at the BIG CAP.

It couldn't have been that horrible of an entry Rollo. Pretty sure she went favored.

Rosario also won a Grade 1 that day. The $400,000 Santa Anita Oaks on CRISP for John Sadler.

Wasn't enough to save my job.

The mastermind behind everything was Bejarano's agent Joe Ferrer. He could speak Spanish to Rosario. He convinced him that I was wrong for asking permission to work for Garcia.

That I should have been happy with just Joel. In retrospect he was 100% right. It was a bad move. Greedy to try to have two guys in the top 5 in the Country.

He also said he'd help Ebanks with Bejarano's 2nd calls. Which Ebanks fell for. Fererr, an extremely clever agent, pointed him to a lot of bad horses which didn't help Joel at all. But VERY good for Raffa.

Ebanks promised to drop Tyler Baze and work exclusively for Rosario. I picked up Tyler and was doing very well with him and Martin until Baffert told Martin he had to fire me or risk losing his business.

Martin felt awful but had no choice. He was riding first call for Baffert and making a TON of money. To this day Baffert will say he had nothing to do with Martin firing me. But Garcia told me the truth.

Baffert was very notorious for being especially tough on agents. I thought we worked together fine. But I don't think he liked the fact that some of the others allowed him to be a bit more controlling than me.

After Martin fired me. Tyler and I were doing VERY good. My book was bulging with calls at Del Mar when he got his face smashed in behind the gate on a cheap Peter Miller maiden named NIGHT JUSTICE.

It took him over a year to get back to the races. I didn't feel like coming back to hustling when he came back. So he hired Craig O'Brien. They did very well. Tyler is a great guy, IMO an elite rider and a dream to work for.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The best part of this was some genius convinced the trainer of St. Trinians, a mare who was riding a 4 or 5 race win streak (all by open lengths) since coming to the US, to run her against males and stretch out an additional 1.5 furlongs in the Big Cap rather than waiting a week for the Santa Margarita.

In her prior start, St. Trinians had dusted BC Distaff winner Life Is Sweet (along with the place horse, Spinster winner Mushka) as well as Zardana, who one race later upset Rachel Alexandra in her 4yo debut at Fair Grounds.

I guess none of that was convincing enough to try Zenyatta coming off a 4 month layoff.

The connections were vindicated in the end, though. Zenyatta beat by a length or so the same horses in the Santa Margarita that St. Trinians was beating by 4-5 lengths. So it was wise to avoid a head-to-head matchup.

With an additional start under her belt (and with St. Trinians being knocked off form in the Big Cap), Zenyatta was also able to prove a 1/2 length best over St. Trinians a couple of months later in the Vanity. With such a dominating win, no one could be disappointed that there wasn't the early matchup at Santa Anita. And it's not like people were interested in some sort of rival for Zenyatta within her own division (since her connections refused to target the plentiful open 10 furlong races in CA).

Your knowledge and recall and the level of detail is absolutely amazing. You are by far the best poster in the Horse racing Metaverse.

[Dahoss]

Hmmm

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

I have THE WORST long term memory. And I know other announcers who are the same.

True story.

Many years ago a Dr. told me that since I memorize and forget 10 horse fields ten times a day every 30 minutes. It cultivates a hyper acute short term memory.

However, the down side of that is it messes up my long term memory. He was 100% correct. That's the way it's played out.

[moses]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Hmmm

[Dahoss]

It’s interesting to see how many people were involved whether on purpose or not in protecting Zenyatta’s streak.

Sad thing is, the race that proved to even her most vocal doubters how good she actually was, was the lone race she was actually challenged and just came up short. Feels like racing fans were robbed of some real exciting racing in a time when the sport needed it because of a dumb streak.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It’s interesting to see how many people were involved whether on purpose or not in protecting Zenyatta’s streak.

Sad thing is, the race that proved to even her most vocal doubters how good she actually was, was the lone race she was actually challenged and just came up short. Feels like racing fans were robbed of some real exciting racing in a time when the sport needed it because of a dumb streak.

Do you think the little girls and boys are bettors now? I do just not on racing

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by jms62

Your knowledge and recall and the level of detail is absolutely amazing. You are by far the best poster in the Horse racing Metaverse.

Please...I am a legend

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It’s interesting to see how many people were involved whether on purpose or not in protecting Zenyatta’s streak.

Sad thing is, the race that proved to even her most vocal doubters how good she actually was, was the lone race she was actually challenged and just came up short. Feels like racing fans were robbed of some real exciting racing in a time when the sport needed it because of a dumb streak.

That "dumb streak" garnered her 4 Eclipse awards including Horse Of The Year.

She earned $7.3 million.

60 Minutes did a piece on her during a time when horse racing was in a precarious, tenuous position.

The Moss's and John Sherriffs brought her back from retirement and shared her with an adoring public who was thrilled to enjoy another campaign.

Question: If you owned her how would you have managed her career differently?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The best part of this was some genius convinced the trainer of St. Trinians, a mare who was riding a 4 or 5 race win streak (all by open lengths) since coming to the US, to run her against males and stretch out an additional 1.5 furlongs in the Big Cap rather than waiting a week for the Santa Margarita.

Good call.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Good call.

I don't think Mitchell running her in the BIG CAP was a terrible idea.

But as it turned out she didn't run very well at all.

She had a very funky way of traveling. She also was much better at Hollywood Park than Santa Anita.

I think his reasoning was this would give him more time to prepare for the Vanity which I know he felt was his best chance at beating QUEENIE.

He knew ST. TRINIANS didn't have much shot at beating ZENYATTA in the Santa Margarita.

The Cap was $750,000 and not a very strong field at all. MISREMEMBERED beat the likes of NEKO BAY, DAKOTA PHONE and JERANIMO I think the Santa Margarita was $400,00 or $500,000.

As it turned out Mitchell was right about the Vanity. When ZENYATTA won that race she ran down a horse that was running AWAY from the rest of the field.

I'll never forget Mitchell walking over to Sherriffs and shaking his hand. As if to say hey I took my best shot and you still got me.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

I don't think Mitchell running her in the BIG CAP was a terrible idea.

Considering the outcome, a derailed racing career (St. Trinians) and a derailed jock agent career (yours), I think it was a terrible idea. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

She had a very funky way of traveling. She also was much better at Hollywood Park than Santa Anita.

Up to that point, she was unbeaten at Santa Anita winning 3 races by a total of 10 lengths including a clear victory over the dominant BC Distaff winner.

I think his reasoning was this would give him more time to prepare for the Vanity which I know he felt was his best chance at beating QUEENIE.

This has to be a joke. The Santa Margarita was a week later and the Vanity was not for another 3 months.

He knew ST. TRINIANS didn't have much shot at beating ZENYATTA in the Santa Margarita.

You saw the actually running of the 2010 Santa Margarita, right? St. Trinians would have romped with a clean trip.

The Cap was $750,000 and not a very strong field at all. MISREMEMBERED beat the likes of NEKO BAY, DAKOTA PHONE and JERANIMO I think the Santa Margarita was $400,00 or $500,000.

Seems like Zenyatta should have been in that race then.

As it turned out Mitchell was right about the Vanity. When ZENYATTA won that race she ran down a horse that was running AWAY from the rest of the field.

Really? I've never seen a race where the first two home are lengths clear of the rest of the field (i.e., listed winner Will O Way, etc). I guess that means there was actually 2 good horses in the race, something rarely seen in CA nowadays. Must be evidence of a generational talent.

I'll never forget Mitchell walking over to Sherriffs and shaking his hand. As if to say hey I took my best shot and you still got me.

Personally, I would have offered to pay Zenyatta's nomination fee for the Hollywood Gold Cup AND the Pacific Classic.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

That "dumb streak" garnered her 4 Eclipse awards including Horse Of The Year.

She earned $7.3 million.

60 Minutes did a piece on her during a time when horse racing was in a precarious, tenuous position.

The Moss's and John Sherriffs brought her back from retirement and shared her with an adoring public who was thrilled to enjoy another campaign.

Question: If you owned her how would you have managed her career differently?

I would have challenged her a bit. They challenged her twice. She won one of the races and lost the other by a nose.

It’s a shame we didn’t get to see her in more races where the outcome wasn’t a given beforehand.

They had a real chance to actually grow the sport. Get people into it. They failed because they were worried about protecting her streak. It was all ego.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Considering the outcome, a derailed racing career (St. Trinians) and a derailed jock agent career (yours), I think it was a terrible idea. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...


Up to that point, she was unbeaten at Santa Anita winning 3 races by a total of 10 lengths including a clear victory over the dominant BC Distaff winner.


This has to be a joke. The Santa Margarita was a week later and the Vanity was not for another 3 months.


You saw the actually running of the 2010 Santa Margarita, right? St. Trinians would have romped with a clean trip.


Seems like Zenyatta should have been in that race then.


Really? I've never seen a race where the first two home are lengths clear of the rest of the field (i.e., listed winner Will O Way, etc). I guess that means there was actually 2 good horses in the race, something rarely seen in CA nowadays. Must be evidence of a generational talent.


Personally, I would have offered to pay Zenyatta's nomination fee for the Hollywood Gold Cup AND the Pacific Classic.

Yep, come to think of it. Everything I said as my opinions are bullshit.

You're 1000% percent right on all counts.

Good presentation too!

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I would have challenged her a bit. They challenged her twice. She won one of the races and lost the other by a nose.

It’s a shame we didn’t get to see her in more races where the outcome wasn’t a given beforehand.

They had a real chance to actually grow the sport. Get people into it. They failed because they were worried about protecting her streak. It was all ego.

I asked if YOU owned her.