English Channel- Track Record

[Scav]

Originally Posted by T3B

Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

His Million was ridiculous. Class alone got him 4th or whatever he finished, EC needed a xanax that day

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses who beat him were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by T3B

Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

He was ineffectual against a very weak field this year ( Red Rocks and Better Talk Now? ), he got drowned in 2005, and in the Arlington Million, while he dealt with a slow pace, it shouldn't have hurt him, as he has the speed to stay close ( and has run some of his better races on the pace ), and he had absolutely nothing in the stretch.

Losing by three lengths in turf races is like losing by six on the dirt in my opinion.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses he beat were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.

thank you....and the fact that EC was 3 wide through all 3 turns and still ran on pretty well at the end...

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was ineffectual against a very weak field this year ( Red Rocks and Better Talk Now? ), he got drowned in 2005, and in the Arlington Million, while he dealt with a slow pace, it shouldn't have hurt him, as he has the speed to stay close ( and has run some of his better races on the pace ), and he had absolutely nothing in the stretch.

Losing by three lengths in turf races is like losing by six on the dirt in my opinion.

He was 3 YO and that was his first race EVER against older horses....and he was the top finishing American horse in that race....and was moved too early as well.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses who beat him were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.

Manila was a monster. A running machine.

One of Theatrical's Grade 1s that year was bogus, as Dance of Life drowned him in the Sword Dancer at Belmont and got unjustifiably Dq'd. Of course, Manila also lost the Bernard Baruch to Talakeno in his prep for the Arlington Million.

[randallscott35]

Andy, who were the last two great horses on turf and dirt? Just curious

[GPK]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Andy, who were the last two great horses on turf and dirt? Just curious

surely Sun King...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Manila was a monster. A running machine.

One of Theatrical's Grade 1s that year was bogus, as Dance of Life drowned him in the Sword Dancer at Belmont and got unjustifiably Dq'd. Of course, Manila also lost the Bernard Baruch to Talakeno in his prep for the Arlington Million.

I never saw film of the Baruch---he did give the winner 12lbs that day.

He certainly really showed up when the chips were down---Manilla won all 5 of his career attempts in Grade 1 races. Including shipping to Southern California and beating the deepest BC Turf field of all time.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Andy, who were the last two great horses on turf and dirt? Just curious

I'm pretty stingy, but Skip Away and Formal Gold certainly came close IMO, and maybe Manila on the turf. I'm not sure I would call her great but Ouiji Board sure feels pretty special. But it's hard for me to get a real handle on Euros.

Come to think of it, Lure may have been close.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I never saw film of the Baruch---he did give the winner 12lbs that day.

He certainly really showed up when the chips were down---Manilla won all 5 of his career attempts in Grade 1 races. Including shipping to Southern California and beating the deepest BC Turf field of all time.

Well, Dancing Brave apparently lost over 100 pounds and was pretty freaked out and clearly didn't show up.

But, Manila was a tiger that day. I was actually there.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by T3B

surely Sun King...

I don't overrate the horses I happen to like. I just root for them.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm pretty stingy, but Skip Away and Formal Gold certainly came close IMO, and maybe Manila on the turf. I'm not sure I would call her great but Ouiji Board sure feels pretty special. But it's hard for me to get a real handle on Euros.

Come to think of it, Lure may have been close.

You know what it is than, your definition of great is "all-time great." Which is fine.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't overrate the horses I happen to like. I just root for them.

deep breaths....it was a joke.

Ghostzapper could've been. Woulda coulda shoulda...story of this goddamn game the past few decades.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Ghostzapper could've been. Woulda coulda shoulda...story of this goddamn game the past few decades.

Mineshaft was. Not even a question.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Mineshaft was. Not even a question.

I think Ghostzapper was great. I forgot him.

I think Mineshaft was a terrific horse.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I think Ghostzapper was great. I forgot him.

I think Mineshaft was a terrific horse.

YES!!!! That a boy. Another reason you are my hero.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by T3B

deep breaths....it was a joke.

Thanks for clearing that up.....I was very upset.

I was just about to start a thread saying I was leaving.

[GPK]

I haven't been around racing long enough to characterize any horse as "great", I so know jack sh*t basically