Big 2 yr old races??

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i have a question tho....

many trainers use works between races to keep a horse fit. in the 'old days' races were used between races, if you know what i mean. why the change? you don't earn purse money in a work.

Danzig,
Again, I'm only speaking from my own experiences.
Some trainers still use races as preps for bigger later.
As far as works go, many people think horses are a "constant".
They ran that way last time, so why shouldn't they run the same way again now?
The short answer is that they aren't "constant". It's more like a curve.
Train up (whether with works or races) so that they're at the peak of the curve when it counts. It all depends on what is being aimed at.
I hope this makes sense.
DTS

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hail To Reason is a good example of starting early ... and a bad one. "Good" because he stunk in his first five starts ... which began in January! ... then did OK in his next six starts ... then blossomed into a spectacuklar champion in his next seven starts ... a total of 18 starts as a 2YO! ... getting better and better with each one. But he's also a "bad" example ... because he broke down and never raced again.

Hoist The Flag may have been the greatest race horse in the history of the world ... may have ... but we'll never know 'cause he broke down too.

Hail to Reason did not 'break down' in the usual sense. According to a source that should know (was a racing fan at the time), HtR was working when he stepped on a shoe that had been shed by another horse earlier in the morning. Caused an injury that ended his racing career. As a stallion, he has been a reliable source of soundness and stamina.

Hoist the Flag ran only 4 times at 2, a maiden, an allowance, the Cowdin and the Champagne, all in the space of two months. He came out the next spring, aired against allowance foes at Bowie and ran away from some colts that placed in the classics in the Gotham. Was working when he put a foot down wrong and had a Barbaro-type injury. (I was a racing fan at the time and have written the profile for HtF for the upcoming book "Great Sires of the Century". Shameless plug.)

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

2YO horses are the equivalent of larger high school age humans ... they're muscular and powerful. The 8YO humans you're describing would be late-stage weanlings as horses.

Racing ... and training for racing ... helps the development and fitness of the proper parts of their bodies ... and even more important ...

... helps them develop mentally into professional athletes.

There's absolutely no data which demonstrates that late starters and light racers are more sound ... or better race horses ... than early starters and heavy racers.

Run 'em early ... and run 'em a lot ... they're no more likely to break down than they would otherwise be ... and they'll be better prepared physically and mentally for the tough career as a race horse.

A two year old horse is the equivalent to a six year old child. 1 year horses=3 years humans. This is a proven fact.

However, you and DTS are both right. A two-year old can and should be raced if they are fit, sound, and mature enough to do it. It all depends on the individual animal. The problem is that a lot of trainers/owners push delicate unsound animals way too much.

[Danzig]

i think the biggest problem would be breeders who have surgery done to correct foals who are born with problems, and then disclose nothing. no clue that they were incorrect, and then after racing, off to the shed to make others like them.
then there are those like GZ--too fragile to run more than 3/4 times a year, but hey, let's book 100 mares to him. fantastic.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

A two year old horse is the equivalent to a six year old child. 1 year horses=3 years humans. This is a proven fact.

However, you and DTS are both right. A two-year old can and should be raced if they are fit, sound, and mature enough to do it. It all depends on the individual animal. The problem is that a lot of trainers/owners push delicate unsound animals way too much.

i disagree with the 1 year equalling 3 in a human, especially early on. a horses life span may be the third of a humans, but to say a 3 yo is the equivalent to a nine year old child would be incorrect. horses mature much more quickly, with most equating a 2 yo to a teenager.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i disagree with the 1 year equalling 3 in a human, especially early on. a horses life span may be the third of a humans, but to say a 3 yo is the equivalent to a nine year old child would be incorrect. horses mature much more quickly, with most equating a 2 yo to a teenager.

I'm just repeating what every veterinarian has ever told me, and what I have in all of my veterinary medical books. I've even questioned that theory before myself, and had an in depth coversation with a veterinarian before about it. According to them, a horse that has just turned to a two year old equals a six year old child. What most people don't realize is that horses don't stop growing and developing until they are about 5-7 years of age depending upon the animal. This is an area in which I have done a lot of research in. It is not incorrect. Go argue with a veterinarian about it and see how far you get. IT IS A PROVEN FACT. Would you like me to list all of the websites that prove it?

http://horses.about.com/library/calcs/blagecompare.htm

However, some sources are now argueing that horses do mature more quickly until they reach age 3 which they call puberty. However, anyone who has worked with horses knows that horses actually reach puberty at one year of age. At 3, they are considered mature horses. Some sources say that for every 1 year of age until they reach 3 equals 6.5 years in human age. These sources say that after three they age at about 2.5 years per year. However, I disagree with this assessment because horses don't stop growing until they are 5-7 years of age. A human stops growing and developing (bones) when they are around 18. At five, according to these sources, a horse would be 25 in human years, yet some horses bones are still developing at this age. Therefore, this cannot be correct.

[Danzig]

like i said, lifespan-wise, yes. but equating maturity or actual physical ability? no way. most think a horses reaches it's optimal physical condition at age four, that would make them the equivalent of a twelve year old. no way that would make sense.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

like i said, lifespan-wise, yes. but equating maturity or actual physical ability? no way. most think a horses reaches it's optimal physical condition at age four, that would make them the equivalent of a twelve year old. no way that would make sense.

It depends on what type of horses you are talking about. Show jumpers aren't their best until they are age 12-15. I tend to think that racehorses are their best in their 4-6 years depending upon the individual and if they haven't peaked too early. However, we don't get to see a lot of our stars at this age because of injuries. Maybe racehorses are even better in their seven/eight year old years. We don't know because not enough talented horses stay around to be raced at this late age. However, I know of some great steeple chasers that are raced and winning at the highest levels at seven-ten years of age.

A four year old is not done growing yet. My good horse chucker grew a whole another inch his four year old year, and then a half an inch his five year old year. My horse Sis is still getting taller and filling out in her four year old year. She has grown another half an inch this year and her hind end is still higher than her withers. (Horses' hind ends grow faster).

[Downthestretch55]

Danzig,
Do you mind if I ask you a question?
Do you own or work with horses?

From my own experience, of the six two year olds I've owned (two are currently two, the others are older now), each has been very different.
Some bloom early, some later.
Each one has been unique.
I just take them at their own stage of development.

Please don't mind my asking, I mean no offense.

DTS

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

glad to see someone else who thinks that way. back when zito had several very nice two year old colts, and opted to skip the bcj and 'save them' for the derby, i said it was a huge mistake, and got jumped on by many. um, zito went 0-fer in the derby. he possibly was sitting on a bc winner, and 2 yo HOY (wonder how much higher that stud fee would be now), and didn't go for it. and ended up losing his top colt to another trainer to boot.

a bird in the hand...

And then there was Funny Cide. Barclay Tagg skipped the BC juvenile race with a very capable two year old and opted to go to the Derby with him, and we all know what happened. Funny Cide is still running today because he wasn't raced too early. I love Barclay Tagg. I wish more trainers were like him. He knows how to keep his horses sound.

[SniperSB23]

Here are the Graded 2YO stakes for this year:

Date Grade Race Track
5/4 3 Kentucky Breeders' Cup Stakes CD
7/4 3 Hollywood Juvenile Championship Stakes HOL
7/8 3 Bashford Manor Stakes CD
7/27 2 Sanford Stakes SAR
8/13 2 Best Pal Stakes DMR
8/17 2 Saratoga Special Stakes SAR
9/4 1 Hopeful Stakes SAR
9/6 2 Del Mar Futurity DMR
9/10 3 Arlington-Washington Breeders' Cup Futurity AP
9/23 2 Futurity Stakes BEL
Sep 3 Sapling Stakes MTH
Sep 3 Kentucky Cup Juvenile Stakes TP
10/7 1 Lane's End Breeder's Futurity Stakes KEE
10/14 1 Champagne Stakes BEL
10/29 3 Nashua Stakes BEL
10/29 3 Iroquois Stakes CD
Oct 2 Norfolk Stakes OSA
11/4 1 Bessemer Trust Breeders' Cup Juvenile CD
11/25 2 Remsen Stakes AQU
11/25 2 Kentucky Jockey Club Stakes CD
Nov 3 Generous Stakes HOL
Nov 3 Hollywood Prevue Stakes HOL
Dec 3 Boyd Gaming's Delta Jackpot Stakes DED
Dec 1 Hollywood Futurity HOL

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

And then there was Funny Cide. Barclay Tagg skipped the BC juvenile race with a very capable two year old and opted to go to the Derby with him, and we all know what happened. Funny Cide is still running today because he wasn't raced too early. I love Barclay Tagg. I wish more trainers were like him. He knows how to keep his horses sound.

Tagg is a real horseman. Always does what is best for his horses. Was really patient with Showing Up it worked out for him. The horse has all sorts of problems at 2 and Tagg didn't run him. I was a little surprised he tried to take on Barbaro, but he ran a great derby and got a ton of foundation out of the race, as you can tell by the fact that the distance in the Colonial was nothing for him.

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

And then there was Funny Cide. Barclay Tagg skipped the BC juvenile race with a very capable two year old and opted to go to the Derby with him, and we all know what happened. Funny Cide is still running today because he wasn't raced too early. I love Barclay Tagg. I wish more trainers were like him. He knows how to keep his horses sound.

FC ran in those NY Bred Stakes Races, I don't think he was ever considered for the BCJ, I believe did not FC faced open company until the Holy Bull Stakes of his 3yo year. Also, I remember Tagg being hesitant about wanting to go to the Derby, I think it was the owners pushing for that, I could be wrong, but I really doubt he was thinking Derby for this horse during his 2yo year.

First off humans do not stop developing when they are 18. Men really do not stop developing until they are 25 or 27. Women tend to stop developing much earier. I think it is like 19-21.

Horses physically develop much faster than humans. As for as life span is concerned 1 year for a horse is equal to about 4 human years. So a 20 year old horse is an 80 year old person. But it would be hard to measure and compare a horses physical maturity vs a humans. Humans develop over the course of 25 years. Horses develop in a span of 7 years.

But I see no harm in racing horses at a young age. If he we (human) didnt inject drugs and special feed to these horses at a young age then maybe they wouldnt break down so much. If we let them develop naturally then maybe these horses would be sound for a longer period of time.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Pointg5

FC ran in those NY Bred Stakes Races, I don't think he was ever considered for the BCJ, I believe did not FC faced open company until the Holy Bull Stakes of his 3yo year. Also, I remember Tagg being hesitant about wanting to go to the Derby, I think it was the owners pushing for that, I could be wrong, but I really doubt he was thinking Derby for this horse during his 2yo year.

He was considered for the BCJ. I have read the book on the horse twice now. Tagg definitely wanted to go to the Derby if FC was good enough. It was just that, in the early spring of this three year old year, Funny Cide still had that weird mucous in his throat that they were trying to cure. They cured it, and all systems were go. They were thinking Derby with this horse in his two year old year. They knew what they had. In fact, as soon as Santos sat on the horse for the first time in his two year old year, he said "This is going to be my Derby horse." That is how fast Funny Cide was. He broke his maiden by fifteen lenghts. In his next start, he shattered the stakes record and earned a 103 BSF which was the highest BSF awarded to a two year old at that time in the entire country. In the book, it states specifically that Tagg did not want to go to the BCJ, even though the horse was invited, because he knew what that race did to potential three year old stars. He was thinking classic races with this horse in only his second start. In FC's case, that choice paid off. I will type the entire excerpt from the book to prove my point if you would like.

Human beings are about the slowest physical developers of all mammals ... and with good reason ...

... because being a successful human is as much a matter of mental ability as physical ability ... and the slow physical maturation process allows time for the complex mental development to take place.

As far as a 2YO horse being the physical equivalent of 6YO or 8YO humans ... utter nonsense. There are 2YO horses who are as large as 17 hands ... the equivalent of a 6'6"+ human ... and when was the last time you saw a 6YO kid who could slam dunk?

Sheeesh !!!

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

Funny Cide is still running today because he wasn't raced too early.

Ummm ... not quite.

Funny Cide is still racing today ... because he's a GELDING!

Another SHEEEESH !!!

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Hail to Reason did not 'break down' in the usual sense. According to a source that should know (was a racing fan at the time), HtR was working when he stepped on a shoe that had been shed by another horse earlier in the morning. Caused an injury that ended his racing career. As a stallion, he has been a reliable source of soundness and stamina.

Hoist the Flag ran only 4 times at 2, a maiden, an allowance, the Cowdin and the Champagne, all in the space of two months. He came out the next spring, aired against allowance foes at Bowie and ran away from some colts that placed in the classics in the Gotham. Was working when he put a foot down wrong and had a Barbaro-type injury. (I was a racing fan at the time and have written the profile for HtF for the upcoming book "Great Sires of the Century". Shameless plug.)

Correct in both cases.

What a shame their careers were cut short ... two of the greatest woulda/coulda/shouldas in thoroughbred racing history.

By the way "Pedigree Ann" ... have you sometimes called yourself "Phalaris"?

C'mon ... 'fess up if you have!

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Ummm ... not quite.

Funny Cide is still racing today ... because he's a GELDING!

Another SHEEEESH !!!

I think she meant that he is still sound today because of the fact that they let him take his time.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Correct in both cases.

What a shame their careers were cut short ... two of the greatest woulda/coulda/shouldas in thoroughbred racing history.

By the way "Pedigree Ann" ... have you sometimes called yourself "Phalaris"?

C'mon ... 'fess up if you have!

Actually HTF's story was incredible. Dr. Jenny One and Dr. Reed were miracle workers. The horse was 99% a goner. His injury was as bad as it gets. It was described as "His cannon bone, running from ankle to knee, had split vertically, and a four-inch long section had snapped off and slid out of place. Below it, the colt's long pastern bone, running from ankle to hoof, was utterly shattered."

Everything they did to save him was experimental. HTF and the entire breed owe everything to human orthopedic surgeons in Switzerland and to Jenny and Reed. What a lucky horse that Reed had a hospital right at belmont because they were seconds away from just putting him down.

In my opinion, Hoist the flag was the most talented horse to ever set foot on the track.