Presque Isle Downs - Nice Purses

[sumitas]

The purses at Presque Isle have to be a plus, imo. All races on the card benefit. What's not to like ?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I don't think racing has improved at slots tracks. You may get a horse or two for upper class races you wouldn't have got but no overall. And when a Thursday Philly Park race with an overinflated purse draws one or two runners out of NY, what good does that do? None, really. The Phil Park pools are too small and the takeout too usurious to wager seriously into so all you get in the end iis a watered down NY race.

I don't think slot machines compete for horse players. I doubt you can go to a slot room at a racino and see three people with a racing form. I do not believe they are the same people, no.

Should some tracks die because they cannot compete? Absolutely. I don't see anything wrong with people, businesses or industries who cannot compete failing. The favorable treatment you speak of I don't understand. It's not right to say that in one sentence without following it in the next by saying that the slot tracks are created, at least in great part, by the horse racing industry itself.

Your on your own with the McDonalds analogy. I don't get it. That's like saying US Steel should have gotten saved in the end despite the fact the economy changed and they couldn't compete. Who should have paid? Microsoft?

I'm not a takeout/regulations expert, so I concede there. But how can Ellis do what they did? It's possible, apparently.

It's not as if every single track that is succesful has slots. Tampa, Oaklawn, Arlington, Santa Anita, Keeneland all had or are having good meets this year. It's possible, apparently.

I understand that a new race track with high purses is a good thing for people who earn their money racing and like I said, people should certainly earn whatever they can.

If you try to explain to a non-racing fan what Presque is and why the purses there are as high as DelMAr and Saratoga but pools are going to be so low that a $100 wager will bang it up so much that you cannot bet the track, you'll get a confused response.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think tracks should exist if wagering does not support them.

If you dont think that Praire Meadows, Charlestown, Mountaineer, and Woodbine dont have better racing than before slots you must have a short memory.

The McDonalds analogy was saying that a restaurant should be able to offer more items on its menu as the market changes just as the tracks should be able to offer more gambling options as the market changes. As partners with the track the horsemen should be able to share in the proceeds of the new menu.

Ellis had to petition the horseracing authority to get permission to drop the takeout in the pick 4. KY has one of the few racing commissions that allows the tracks to lower takeout rather easily

Why would there ever be a need to explain Presque Isles purses to a nonracing fan? Why would anyone care? Why do you care?

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think tracks should exist if wagering does not support them.

That being the case, then surely, Presque Isle Downs would have never come into existence.

As most people know, Mountaineer Gaming is only using the track as a means to generate income from the slots in an area where no slot gambling is available. A smart investment move by Mountaineer.

Did racing need another track in northwestern PA? Absolutely not. With 7 tracks within a 5 hour drive (Penn National, Mountaineer, Thistledowns, Beulah Park, Finger Lakes, Woodbine and Fort Erie), why in the world would racing need another track in an area where tracks already struggle to fill their races? It doesn't. But since Presque Isle Downs will become a reality, let's look at the positive effects it will have on racing.

1) Excellent purses that will benefit everyone involved in racing (owners, trainers, jocks, stable staff)
2) Economic boost to the agricultural industry in the area, as well as a positive employment impact.

Will it generate great racing? Doubtful. Have to wait and see. Surely the large purses will/should attract better horses, but next year when they run their meeting (May-Sep) they will be competing against Bel/Sar, WO, AP and to a lesser degree Pen, Pha, Del and Mth. Just not enough good horses to go around, so yeah, racing will be diluted. But I don't see where that's a big deal, because a genuine fan should/will appreciate racing at all levels. Racing is racing. Within the last year I've witnessed great enthusiam for racing equally in the grandstands at the "great" Churchill Downs and the "lowly" Flagstaff.

As far as slots being a prop for racing, (it is), but I don't see a problem with that either. Anything that puts money into racing to keep it going or to stimulate growth is a good thing.

[sumitas]

Here's a paragraph about Tioga Downs, NY, a new harness racino.
http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pb.../1002/BUSINESS

A couple of months ago Tioga/Vernon Downs petitioned the state to lower the slots takeout so they could compete with Turning Stone (Indian reservation). The state did so because the tracks needed to be on a par with the Indian reservations to survive. Customers were all going to Turning Stone for the bigger and more frequent slots payouts.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why would there ever be a need to explain Presque Isles purses to a nonracing fan? Why would anyone care? Why do you care?

LOL.

It took a while but thanks for the Cannon Shell "Why do you care?" treatment you trot out when someone disagrees with you.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

That being the case, then surely, Presque Isle Downs would have never come into existence.

As most people know, Mountaineer Gaming is only using the track as a means to generate income from the slots in an area where no slot gambling is available. A smart investment move by Mountaineer.

Did racing need another track in northwestern PA? Absolutely not. With 7 tracks within a 5 hour drive (Penn National, Mountaineer, Thistledowns, Beulah Park, Finger Lakes, Woodbine and Fort Erie), why in the world would racing need another track in an area where tracks already struggle to fill their races? It doesn't. But since Presque Isle Downs will become a reality, let's look at the positive effects it will have on racing.

1) Excellent purses that will benefit everyone involved in racing (owners, trainers, jocks, stable staff)
2) Economic boost to the agricultural industry in the area, as well as a positive employment impact.

Will it generate great racing? Doubtful. Have to wait and see. Surely the large purses will/should attract better horses, but next year when they run their meeting (May-Sep) they will be competing against Bel/Sar, WO, AP and to a lesser degree Pen, Pha, Del and Mth. Just not enough good horses to go around, so yeah, racing will be diluted. But I don't see where that's a big deal, because a genuine fan should/will appreciate racing at all levels. Racing is racing. Within the last year I've witnessed great enthusiam for racing equally in the grandstands at the "great" Churchill Downs and the "lowly" Flagstaff.

As far as slots being a prop for racing, (it is), but I don't see a problem with that either. Anything that puts money into racing to keep it going or to stimulate growth is a good thing.

Like I said earlier, people getting paid is a good thing. But diluting racing is a very bad thing for the bettors. When you say "Everyone involved benefits," how exactly do bettors benefit?

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

When you say "Everyone involved benefits," how exactly do bettors benefit?

A fair question.

The immediate benefit to "bettors" is that it is one more track to choose from.
Gambling is relative. There is "value" in every race, if "the bettor" is astute enough to find the value. Considering the variables of the Tapeta surface and horses shipping in from all over the northeast, midwest, kentucky and Canada, it should make selecting a winner pretty challenging. But more than that, it should make for some very interesting racing.

"Bettors" never had it so good. With similcasting and internet wagering, there are hundreds of races for a "bettor" to choose from each day. If you find that Presque Isle Downs doesn't provide the types of races that you like to bet, then move on to a track that you find more adventageous. But at least you will have one more option to choose from and that is definitely a good thing.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

A fair question.

The immediate benefit to "bettors" is that it is one more track to choose from.
Gambling is relative. There is "value" in every race, if "the bettor" is astute enough to find the value. Considering the variables of the Tapeta surface and horses shipping in from all over the northeast, midwest, kentucky and Canada, it should make selecting a winner pretty challenging. But more than that, it should make for some very interesting racing.

"Bettors" never had it so good. With similcasting and internet wagering, there are hundreds of races for a "bettor" to choose from each day. If you find that Presque Isle Downs doesn't provide the types of races that you like to bet, then move on to a track that you find more adventageous. But at least you will have one more option to choose from and that is definitely a good thing.

I don't need another track to fire at. I'm not the type of wagerer who sits in a simulcast seat flipping my book to the next race going off in two minutes.

The problem for me is that these slot tracks dilute good racing elsewhere at the direct expense of the bettors. Nobody in their right mind will play a p-3 or p-4 at a Pennsylvania track that takes 25-30% of the pool in take out while offering meager pools.

I have no problem with people racing where they can earn the most money. But their gain is the bettors' loss. There's no doubt about that.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by sumitas

Here's a paragraph about Tioga Downs, NY, a new harness racino.
http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pb.../1002/BUSINESS

A couple of months ago Tioga/Vernon Downs petitioned the state to lower the slots takeout so they could compete with Turning Stone (Indian reservation). The state did so because the tracks needed to be on a par with the Indian reservations to survive. Customers were all going to Turning Stone for the bigger and more frequent slots payouts.

Tioga Downs isn't new, it had been idle for almost 25 years in disrepair on the side of Rte 17. It makes me ill every time I see it, because they were granted a slots license and had their racino up and running within like 18 months, whereas NYRA is at what, 5 years now and no racino?

Personally I hate slot machines but if they help racing (and if you don't think the racing is better at MNR or especially DEL post-slots you don't remember the $1500 claimers there) I'm all for it.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by philcski

Tioga Downs isn't new, it had been idle for almost 25 years in disrepair on the side of Rte 17. It makes me ill every time I see it, because they were granted a slots license and had their racino up and running within like 18 months, whereas NYRA is at what, 5 years now and no racino?

Personally I hate slot machines but if they help racing (and if you don't think the racing is better at MNR or especially DEL post-slots you don't remember the $1500 claimers there) I'm all for it.

I do remember those days, especially Mountaineer where we used to ship out of Detroit in the late fall in the 70's. I guess I'd say that with inflation, a nickel claimer today is no better than a $1500 claimer 25 or 30 years ago, so it's arguable the racing has improved.

As for Delaware, what good do all their five and six horse Allowance fields do for the bettors? Nice horses, ok, but in my mind the bettors suffer when these decent horses run at Delaware with their $7,000 pick-3 pools. I guess I look at it a bit different than a lot of folks.

I also have a sore spot for Delaware (and other mid-atlantic tracks) dating back to when they stopped carrying Keeneland's signal when that track tried to reduce takeout on ALL wagers to 16% stating their own handle would suffer. Keeneland relented. The bettors get the short end. I digress.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

The problem for me is that these slot tracks dilute good racing elsewhere at the direct expense of the bettors.

Give us an example.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

LOL.

It took a while but thanks for the Cannon Shell "Why do you care?" treatment you trot out when someone disagrees with you.

Why do you care except when you make the argument that slots tracks dilute racing at other venues. Which would seem to be contrary to your statement that slots tracks racing has not improved post slots. I agree with you that the takeout levels are crazy at some of these places and it is short sighted of both the tracks and horsemen not to address this. And the truth is that the bettors who have supported the game for years should also share in the wealth with reduced takeouts. But to say that a business should not be able to expand their gambling offerings and help support their core product is unusual to say the least.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

Give us an example.

lol.

How about Delaware's 7th on Monday? Five horses N2X/$32k optional. WPS Pool $64,000. P-3 pool $7,000.

How about the 5th the day before. Six horses. N3x/$50k. P-3 pool was $9,000 but hey that was DelCap day!

Or, the 7th race the day before that with 5 betting interests. Or the 7th on 7/10.

Or, my favorite, the 8th race on the 10th... n3x/$50k. Four horses. The WPS pool was $42,000. The race after that was a $10,000 Maiden Claimer. The WPS pool was 25% higher.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

lol.

How about Delaware's 7th on Monday? Five horses N2X/$32k optional. WPS Pool $64,000. P-3 pool $7,000.

How about the 5th the day before. Six horses. N3x/$50k. P-3 pool was $9,000 but hey that was DelCap day!

Or, the 7th race the day before that with 5 betting interests. Or the 7th on 7/10.

Or, my favorite, the 8th race on the 10th... n3x/$50k. Four horses. The WPS pool was $42,000. The race after that was a $10,000 Maiden Claimer. The WPS pool was 25% higher.

Okay, not great races and you have a gripe with Delaware. Personally, I think it is one of the gems of the northeast and it would have been tragic if it closed.

Back to your point, to illustrate your thesis - Delaware Park is closed. Where would these horses race?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why do you care except when you make the argument that slots tracks dilute racing at other venues. Which would seem to be contrary to your statement that slots tracks racing has not improved post slots. I agree with you that the takeout levels are crazy at some of these places and it is short sighted of both the tracks and horsemen not to address this. And the truth is that the bettors who have supported the game for years should also share in the wealth with reduced takeouts. But to say that a business should not be able to expand their gambling offerings and help support their core product is unusual to say the least.

That's my only point and it's not contrary. Not at all. At least how I look at it which includes the interests of bettors. What do these Delaware dirt Allownace races with 5 horses do for the sport other than to dilute racing at more attractive tracks, wagering wise? Few people bet them. In my mind, that's not very good racing.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

Okay, not great races and you have a gripe with Delaware. Personally, I think it is one of the gems of the northeast and it would have been tragic if it closed.

Back to your point, to illustrate your thesis - Delaware Park is closed. Where would these horses race?

"Not great races" is a bit generous. There's several of those every week there.

The good ones would run in NY or NJ or KY or Chicago. The ones that don't belong at that level would drop and ship anywhere.

Delaware is a nice place. So was AkSarBen. So was Rockingham. So was Washington Park. So was Atlantic City. Especially so was Hialeah. When Hialeah went bust, they had the highest take out rates in the nation.

Like I said before, if I made a living directly from training or owning horses, I would have a far different perspective. To me, the only things that matter are quality, field size, pool size and takeout. And since slot machines artificially inflate purses at racino tracks at the expense of the things that matter to me, I'm against them.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Delaware is a nice place. So was AkSarBen. So was Rockingham. So was Washington Park. So was Atlantic City. Especially so was Hialeah. When Hialeah went bust, they had the highest take out rates in the nation.

I wouldn't put AkSarBen and Atlantic City in the same category as Delaware. If they closed all the mid-level tracks in the northeast, Delaware would be the one they should keep. As for Hialeah, tragic. It was a matter of 3 rats fighting over a one piece of cheese and the two bigger rats won. Never made it to Washington Park or Rockhampton.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

"Not great races" is a bit generous. There's several of those every week there.

Unfortunate, but true.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

The good ones would run in NY or NJ or KY or Chicago. The ones that don't belong at that level would drop and ship anywhere.

Okay, staying with your thesis - let's close all of the tracks (just in the northeast) that are slots (or will be) supported. Now closed are Mountaineer, Charles Town, Penn National, Philadelphia Park, Finger Lakes, Fort Erie, Woodbine, Indiana Downs and Hoosier Park.

Now we're talking about a lot of horses. Where do you send them?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

I wouldn't put AkSarBen and Atlantic City in the same category as Delaware. If they closed all the mid-level tracks in the northeast, Delaware would be the one they should keep. As for Hialeah, tragic. It was a matter of 3 rats fighting over a one piece of cheese and the two bigger rats won. Never made it to Washington Park or Rockhampton.


Unfortunate, but true.


Okay, staying with your thesis - let's close all of the tracks (just in the northeast) that are slots (or will be) supported. Now closed are Mountaineer, Charles Town, Penn National, Philadelphia Park, Finger Lakes, Fort Erie, Woodbine, Indiana Downs and Hoosier Park.

Now we're talking about a lot of horses. Where do you send them?

Hey, I loved Atlantic City. Saw Manilla win the UN there in the mid 80's.

The 'decent' horses from those tracks would run anywhere else. As for the nickel clamers, I don't care, really. A nickel claimer today was a $2000 claimer 15 years ago. I'm sure they're important to the people who own and train them but serious players would much rather see fewer races with fuller fields and better horses. They could keep those tracks open for what they are. Some would make it, others wouldn't. What would the peolple displaced do? I don't know. They'd do whatever the people displaced out of the auto or steel industries did, I expect. The other dynamic that keeps bottom tier tracks alive is the insane simulcasting revenue sharing arrangements that exist. "Live handle" has very, very little to do with how well most race tracks financially perform. From a serious wagerer's view, the world might well be better without Philly Park, Charlestown or any other slot track that cannibalizes field size, quality and pool size at better race tracks.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

The decent horses from those tracks would run anywhere else. As for the nickel clamers, I don't care, really.

Okay, sounds like your involvement in the game is primarily gambling. Fair enough. The industry needs "serious players" to keep the game moving, but as you are starting to find out, the "need" for having "serious players" is evaporating. Presque Isle is a prefect example, not a bet has been made, but yet, they have a fabulous purse structure.

Every track should strive to achieve the best handle possbile through fan interest (attendence), lowering the takeout, simulcasting and internet wagering. However, thankfully, many tracks now and in the future will have a "get out of jail free" card with slot revenues to keep their tracks and the industry going.

Slot tracks are here to stay and will continue to proliferate. There will be no happy ending for the type of people who embrace racing as you do. So what is to become of the "serious players"?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by scanman

Okay, sounds like your involvement in the game is primarily gambling. Fair enough. The industry needs "serious players" to keep the game moving, but as you are starting to find out, the "need" for having "serious players" is evaporating. Presque Isle is a prefect example, not a bet has been made, but yet, they have a fabulous purse structure.

Every track should strive to achieve the best handle possbile through fan interest (attendence), lowering the takeout, simulcasting and internet wagering. However, thankfully, many tracks now and in the future will have a "get out of jail free" card with slot revenues to keep their tracks and the industry going.

Slot tracks are here to stay and will continue to proliferate. There will be no happy ending for the type of people who embrace racing as you do. So what is to become of the "serious players"?

LOL. How the hell do you know how I embrace my own a ss much less racing? I've owned race horses, I've been to over 100 racetracks, I've seen arguably the most highly anticipated race of the last 30 years. For certain, I've met or have had phone calls or have received personal emails from racetrack CEOs numbering higher than the times you have spelled the word "attendence" correctly.

You're a fool if you believe slot machines are what drives this sport.