Breeders' Cup Going for Grade 1's Again

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How about running a $250K for turf sprinters in addition to the 2YO fields? Certainly that would have gotten the same field as a phony BC race would have gotten.

Frankly, the BC needs to find a way to facilitate foreign participation, like every other country does. That is a far more pressing need than adding races of dubious quality.

If you want the Breeders' Cup to attract foreign based horses.

Take a look at the lineup that Hong Kong offers on December 9th.

The grass sprinters in that field definitely aren't racing because they are subpar and can't cut it on dirt. And there is a mile, a ten furlong, and a twelve furlong event. All different type horses, all quality fields.

If we want to attract foreign participation, card races that foreign based horses run in. Australian, Hong Kong, and Japanese racing all have spectacular sprinters on turf. They also have extraordinary 10 and 12 furlong horses on turf.

How do we get them to come instead of sub-par European horses?

Status and money that beats their own domestic races.

Turf sprints are **** here, but they are big time down under and in Asia.

[blackthroatedwind]

Hong Kong pays the expenses of the horses, and their connections, to come for those races. The BC does not. Plus, the current value of the US dollar isn't helping either.

[brockguy]

the HK Sprint is the World Championship turf sprint race attracting the best horses from Europe, Asia and Australia. Any addition of its kind to the Breeders Cup would not add alot IMO..

[letswastemoney]

in my opinion they are just going to ruin the breeder's cup with too many options. The 3 races they added this year sort of made sense.

I hate turf sprints though, if that's what they're adding now. I guess it's just from having to handicap 12 horse maiden turf sprints at Belmont where no horse has any reliable form that I slowly began to hate turf sprints...

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I thought the original idea of the BC was to crown champions. .

You must not have been around when the whole thing was being discussed. The major factor in the creation of the Breeders' Cup was early retirements of top colts and finding a way to prevent them. The original race (Classic) was framed as an enticement for post-Triple Crown 3yos to be kept in training for the fall by dangling a huge purse in front of the owners. The other races were added to get the managers of stallions unlikely to sire top-class 10f runners to pony up fees.

By the way, there were no G1 sprints or G1 turf miles in the US before the Breeders' Cup program came along. The sprint championship was most often a consolation award to sprinter/milers who couldn't step up to classic distances (Dr. Patches, My Juliet) or an extra honor to the classic distance champion who also won sprint races (Forego, Ack Ack). Pure 6f sprinters horses were a minority among sprint championship winners (Ta Wee, Gallant Bob) until the Breeders' Cup came along.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How about running a $250K for turf sprinters in addition to the 2YO fields? Certainly that would have gotten the same field as a phony BC race would have gotten.

Frankly, the BC needs to find a way to facilitate foreign participation, like every other country does. That is a far more pressing need than adding races of dubious quality.

Foreign participation isn't going to increase in the foreseeable future. Southern Hemisphere horses aren't going to come because they are in the midst of their own classic carnivals and most would have to supplement. The Japanese would have to supplement, too, and their purses are much bigger than ours. George Washington's fate is going to discourage Euros from trying the Classic for a bit of time. The three turf races are going to contiue to get a mix of good and second level horses, since by the end of October many of the Euros are 'over the top' (ready for a rest after a long season) or 'gone in their coats' (started growing a winter coat and presumed to have gone into a winter metabolism).

[saratogabrit]

I'm not sure i'm in favour of a BC Turf Sprint but it would attract European sprinters-because even with the weakness of the $-a purse of $1 Million which gives the winner earnings of about £270,000 is much more than they could win here.

Also if this race was created-obviously a fair number of Graded Stakes would be added to the calendar in North America and i can see the number of European sprinters being sold into American ownership or campaigned in the US going through the roof.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How about running a $250K for turf sprinters in addition to the 2YO fields? Certainly that would have gotten the same field as a phony BC race would have gotten.

Frankly, the BC needs to find a way to facilitate foreign participation, like every other country does. That is a far more pressing need than adding races of dubious quality.

i saw that a marathon is under consideration--or that someone thought it should be under consideration. maybe that would generate more interest from over seas.

i also think the bc should have to wait for their status just like everyone else.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Foreign participation isn't going to increase in the foreseeable future. Southern Hemisphere horses aren't going to come because they are in the midst of their own classic carnivals and most would have to supplement. The Japanese would have to supplement, too, and their purses are much bigger than ours. George Washington's fate is going to discourage Euros from trying the Classic for a bit of time. The three turf races are going to contiue to get a mix of good and second level horses, since by the end of October many of the Euros are 'over the top' (ready for a rest after a long season) or 'gone in their coats' (started growing a winter coat and presumed to have gone into a winter metabolism).

i doubt george will keep everyone else out. that's the only horse in over 20 years of trying that has lost his life. i certainly hope that the euros are made of sterner stuff. i don't see them avoiding their own turf races after dylan thomas' breakdown.

also, don't forget the races next year are on all weather. if anything, more euros will make the attempt at classic glory.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i doubt george will keep everyone else out. that's the only horse in over 20 years of trying that has lost his life. i certainly hope that the euros are made of sterner stuff. i don't see them avoiding their own turf races after dylan thomas' breakdown.

also, don't forget the races next year are on all weather. if anything, more euros will make the attempt at classic glory.

Don't forget Landseer off the top of my head.

[SniperSB23]

I'm fine with a Turf Sprint since it won't cannibilize the current races, it should be a G3 race though unless it attracts a strong foreign presence several years in a row. I have no problem with the FM Sprint going to G1, I think it should be a G1 race and not have to wait to be given that designation. It is at least as good as the G1s that already exist in that division. The Juvy Turf and Dirt Mile should be given G3 status. If they won't even apply for a G3 then they should wait the normal time and be graded accordingly.

[SentToStud]

A blind man could see this coming a mile away.

A lot of people think the BC hit on a good thing with the FM Turf race and they're just "building on that success" with all these additional races. Then again, fillies and mares like Pebbles, Miss Alleged, Royal Heroine, Miesque (x2), Ridgewood Pearl and Six Perfections did just fine without the sex-restriction.

Adding a Juv Turf race, throwing a million dollars at it and trying to get G1 for it is ludicrous. There are a grand total of two Graded turf races for 2 yo's, both of which are Grade 3's and both run in late November at Hollywood. The purses for these races are $100k and $150k. What possible justification is there for a race like this? For the BC people to say it will draw Euro horses is rubbish. Fact is, they've done a lousy job getting Europeans to come during the last 5-8 years and throwing money at the problem is ridiculous and will only serve to further dilute decent racing throughout the fall.

There's even less reason for a $1,000,000 turf sprint aside from, perhaps, to provide competition to the Delta Jackpot as the most ridiculous race of the year.

I like Breeders Cup Day for the racing but overall it's bad for the sport the way it dilutes good races throughout the fall. The JCGC was ok this year but last year's race was pathetic. It won't be long until races like the JCGC and Cigar are downgraded or even go the way of the Marlboro.

This year's Cigar should have drawn Corinthian and a few others. Instead we saw a pretty lousy race. If you don't think it was a lousy race, you are in disagreement with bettors who wagered far more on Aqueduct's last race that day (a NYBred N1X) than they did on the Cigar.

On the positive side, the Cigar resulted in Naughty New Yorker now being Grade 1 Stakes Placed. There is always something for which to be thankful.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Don't forget Landseer off the top of my head.

And the horse that Lester Piggott rode at Gulfstream, Mr. Brooks, if I recall correctly.

[Cannon Shell]

I dont understand why you guys care what grade a race is given. If they make the Juvy turf a grade 1 what is the impact on your life or the sport in general? Pretty much none unless you happen to own the winner. It just is not a big deal.

I also dont understand why anyone cares if the Breeders Cup wants to add races like a Turf sprint. So what if they have a million dollar turf sprint. It is not like they are taxing you with a higher takeout because of it. The result of the turf sprint should be the creation of another division of horses that may race past 3.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont understand why you guys care what grade a race is given. If they make the Juvy turf a grade 1 what is the impact on your life or the sport in general? Pretty much none unless you happen to own the winner. It just is not a big deal.

I also dont understand why anyone cares if the Breeders Cup wants to add races like a Turf sprint. So what if they have a million dollar turf sprint. It is not like they are taxing you with a higher takeout because of it. The result of the turf sprint should be the creation of another division of horses that may race past 3.

Very well said. I completely agree, in the grand scheme of things if you are only a bettor, whether the BC Juvenile Turf is run as a Grade I or ungraded next year means little. A full field will still almost certainly line up for the darn thing.

Also, by the way, the Summer Stakes at Woodbine on the Woodbine Mile undercard has a Canadian Grade 3. Not the same as American, but still graded.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Very well said. I completely agree, in the grand scheme of things if you are only a bettor, whether the BC Juvenile Turf is run as a Grade I or ungraded next year means little. A full field will still almost certainly line up for the darn thing.

Also, by the way, the Summer Stakes at Woodbine on the Woodbine Mile undercard has a Canadian Grade 3. Not the same as American, but still graded.

NT

I dont think it matters much to owners, trainers, and breeders either, unless you have a horse or relative actually in the race.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont understand why you guys care what grade a race is given. If they make the Juvy turf a grade 1 what is the impact on your life or the sport in general? Pretty much none unless you happen to own the winner. It just is not a big deal.

I also dont understand why anyone cares if the Breeders Cup wants to add races like a Turf sprint. So what if they have a million dollar turf sprint. It is not like they are taxing you with a higher takeout because of it. The result of the turf sprint should be the creation of another division of horses that may race past 3.

1) Cause I'm a fan of the sport and don't want to see it further cheapened by creating more non-deserving G1 winners.

2) The more BC G1s the more likely the races start cannibilizing each other. Imagine if Hard Spun hadn't won the King's Bishop and the same deal was in place where the owner/trainer would get an additional $15 million from Darley if he won a G1 by the end of the year. In that scenario if the BC Dirt Mile was G1 wouldn't it have been a no brainer that he would have gone in that race and in turn significantly hurt the field for the BC Classic?

3) Why pay $1 million when you could draw the same field for $250,000? You would then have an additional $750,000 to spread out among the BC supplemented races across the entire racing calendar.

[saucon17]

I would love to see a BC turf sprint. Maybe it would attract those very fast Aussie and Kiwi turf sprinters. Also Woodbine runs the Neartic Stakes a Grade 2 going 6F on the turf

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

1) Cause I'm a fan of the sport and don't want to see it further cheapened by creating more non-deserving G1 winners.

2) The more BC G1s the more likely the races start cannibilizing each other. Imagine if Hard Spun hadn't won the King's Bishop and the same deal was in place where the owner/trainer would get an additional $15 million from Darley if he won a G1 by the end of the year. In that scenario if the BC Dirt Mile was G1 wouldn't it have been a no brainer that he would have gone in that race and in turn significantly hurt the field for the BC Classic?

3) Why pay $1 million when you could draw the same field for $250,000? You would then have an additional $750,000 to spread out among the BC supplemented races across the entire racing calendar.

1. As a fan of the sport what are the personal ramifications of another Grade 1 race? How can 3 or 4 more Grade 1 winners take away from your enjoyment? Who is to say that a grade 1 winner will not participate in the new race or go on to become a multiple grade 1 winner?
2. 2year old turf races, a filly sprint and turf sprint would hardly cannibilize any existing races. If Hard Spun had not run in the Classic would would be different today? Nothing of substance. The fact that a guy can make an additional $15 million for winning any race on the Breeders Cup card is a good thing.
3. That logic is flawed. If there was a $1million dollar turf sprint it could be the US leg of the International turf sprint series which would certainly draw foreigners especially considering the bonus structure of that series. Spreading out $750000 out among the year long events would add far too little to these races to make any impact.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

1. As a fan of the sport what are the personal ramifications of another Grade 1 race? How can 3 or 4 more Grade 1 winners take away from your enjoyment? Who is to say that a grade 1 winner will not participate in the new race or go on to become a multiple grade 1 winner?
2. 2year old turf races, a filly sprint and turf sprint would hardly cannibilize any existing races. If Hard Spun had not run in the Classic would would be different today? Nothing of substance. The fact that a guy can make an additional $15 million for winning any race on the Breeders Cup card is a good thing.
3. That logic is flawed. If there was a $1million dollar turf sprint it could be the US leg of the International turf sprint series which would certainly draw foreigners especially considering the bonus structure of that series. Spreading out $750000 out among the year long events would add far too little to these races to make any impact.

1) More terrible G1 winners like Flashy Bull cheapens the sport to me and in turn makes it tougher to stay a fan of the sport. It is like expanding the MLB All Star rosters to 40 and then telling me a player is great because he made the All Star Game. It just cheapens the whole system. I like it that you can judge horses by what grade stakes they have won and want it to stay that way.

2) I don't have a problem with those races if they draw quality fields. I said earlier I think the FM Sprint should absolutely be a G1. It is the tweener races like the Dirt Mile or a 10f turf race that I would like to see designated as a lower grade to prevent stealing horses from other races. Put them on equal footing and it cheapens the whole event.

3) I'd love it if the race were going to be the first leg of that series and would absolutely believe that would warrant the $1 million purse and G1 status. However, I think it is more likely it would draw a field like the previously mentioned Hollywood Turf Express which you could draw for $250,000 and have $750,000 to spread to the rest of the racing calendar.