Pick your candidate

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by trifecta124

In order to match up with Kucinich you must be a Left Wing Nut.

Exactly!! In the context of today's political climate, Ike would be considered a far out left winger.

Who knew opposing torture and wiretapping and dropping nukes on Iran made you so such a far out liberal kook!!

It tells just how far this country has fallen off base in certain aspects that a question is given asking if you support or oppose torture. Quite amazing that something like that is even worth discussing. And there may actually be politicians who actually give it a thumbs up. And a clown like Obama actually has an unknown view on it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

Rudy being Pro-Choice ended any hope of me ever supporting him, how can anyone be pro-choice???

I'd offer...

How can anyone not be?

Sort of a neverending catch-22 in that argument.

[Danzig]

mine goes mccain-8, t thompson-5, hunter and paul with four.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I'd offer...

How can anyone not be?

Sort of a neverending catch-22 in that argument.

the names of both sides would apply to just about anyone. aren't we all pro life? but some think a person has an individual right to choose their own paths in life. just because something is legal, doesn't mean you have to choose to agree or to make use of that right.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the names of both sides would apply to just about anyone. aren't we all pro life? but some think a person has an individual right to choose their own paths in life. just because something is legal, doesn't mean you have to choose to agree or to make use of that right.

I think people need to be very specific when they ask a question like the N Dame fan asked.I'll respond to it as a question(although he may meant it to be a statement.) With regard to the abortion question,there are 2 types of life.Most people find atleast one type to be precious.If you have 2 people of opposite sex,then you have potential life.There are sperm in him,and eggs in her.If they put sperm n' egg together,then what do they have? To me,this is another form of potential life.I would imagine you're Catholic,and have been taught that this package is "life." I don't believe it is life.Just as I don't believe (2 days after a person dies) a dead body is life.When the embryo becomes something that has a way to feel stimuli(pain etc.,) then it is actual life(to me.)That's precious to me.The package up to that point isn't (to me)alive yet.So,I am not for choosing to end life.I just will never agree with you that an embryo is actual life(until it can feel something,it is potential life.)So,I am for women having the right to end a pregnancy before this stage.If you look at this intellectually,then you will have an opinion when life is actual,and when it is "potential." If you let your religion decide it for you,then you don't have to think(you just react.)

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I think people need to be very specific when they ask a question like the N Dame fan asked.I'll respond to it as a question(although he may meant it to be a statement.) With regard to the abortion question,there are 2 types of life.Most people find atleast one type to be precious.If you have 2 people of opposite sex,then you have potential life.There are sperm in him,and eggs in her.If they put sperm n' egg together,then what do they have? To me,this is another form of potential life.I would imagine you're Catholic,and have been taught that this package is "life." I don't believe it is life.Just as I don't believe (2 days after a person dies) a dead body is life.When the embryo becomes something that has a way to feel stimuli(pain etc.,) then it is actual life(to me.)That's precious to me.The package up to that point isn't (to me)alive yet.So,I am not for choosing to end life.I just will never agree with you that an embryo is actual life(until it can feel something,it is potential life.)So,I am for women having the right to end a pregnancy before this stage.If you look at this intellectually,then you will have an opinion when life is actual,and when it is "potential." If you let your religion decide it for you,then you don't have to think(you just react.)

I agree to an extent...members of my faith have no clear-cut stand on abortion, some for, some against. I have been anti-abortion since 1972, my decision is part philosophical to be sure...I believe that it should be the feminist position (yeah, I know, about 99.999% of feminists disagree with me). I know it's useless to debate here as folks have their minds made up and there is nothing I can say to change (or further support) them. I'm just glad my mom didn't decide to have one...

[somerfrost]

oh, and staying on topic...I still support Hillary although I'll gladly vote for Obama if he ends up the candidate. Neither are far enough to the left for me but symbolically, the election of either would be an important milestone.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I agree to an extent...members of my faith have no clear-cut stand on abortion, some for, some against. I have been anti-abortion since 1972, my decision is part philosophical to be sure...I believe that it should be the feminist position (yeah, I know, about 99.999% of feminists disagree with me). I know it's useless to debate here as folks have their minds made up and there is nothing I can say to change (or further support) them. I'm just glad my mom didn't decide to have one...

What bothered me about Irish's comment wasn't that he wasn't Pro-Choice..that's fine..it's obviously a very split subject, but that he "couldn't understand how someone can be Pro-Choice." There are two sides to every topic, but I like to think that I can "understand" the other's position on most...I may not agree, but still "get" why they think what they think.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GBBob

What bothered me about Irish's comment wasn't that he wasn't Pro-Choice..that's fine..it's obviously a very split subject, but that he "couldn't understand how someone can be Pro-Choice." There are two sides to every topic, but I like to think that I can "understand" the other's position on most...I may not agree, but still "get" why they think what they think.

It is an argument that has two "set in stone" points of view, basically...for most, it come down to when you believe "life" begins and whether you believe all life is equally sacred. Folks obviously have different points of view on those issues. Personally, my two concerns are when the soul actually enters the physical being and the fact that I believe abortion is a clever way to keep women from gaining equality (not to mention minorities). Anyway, of course respecting other's point of view is necessary....

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

It is an argument that has two "set in stone" points of view, basically...for most, it come down to when you believe "life" begins and whether you believe all life is equally sacred. Folks obviously have different points of view on those issues. Personally, my two concerns are when the soul actually enters the physical being and the fact that I believe abortion is a clever way to keep women from gaining equality (not to mention minorities). Anyway, of course respecting other's point of view is necessary....

You are in Blanchester?? My wife is from Clermont County.

In essence life is life. I find it completely hypocritical for those that are so pro-life with regard to embryos...then in turn so violently support the death penalty. It is simply not an either or situation...and yet so many who claim to be pro life simply are not. They employ the hysterical "pro-life with exceptions clause."

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by GBBob

What bothered me about Irish's comment wasn't that he wasn't Pro-Choice..that's fine..it's obviously a very split subject, but that he "couldn't understand how someone can be Pro-Choice." There are two sides to every topic, but I like to think that I can "understand" the other's position on most...I may not agree, but still "get" why they think what they think.

I think that you're parsing it too much. I certainly "get" why people who are anti-choice are anti-choice -- as in, I grasp the crux of their argument.

With that said, I think it's really little more than mostly misogynistic, controlling, straw-man bull$hit, so therefore, I don't understand how anyone could be anything besides pro-choice.

So while I'm obviously not agreeing with Irish on the issue itself, I certainly can understand where he's coming from, even if it's from the complete other side -- how outrageous it can feel that there are actually people that don't agree with you on an issue like this.

[/defend irish]

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think that you're parsing it too much. I certainly "get" why people who are anti-choice are anti-choice -- as in, I grasp the crux of their argument.

With that said, I think it's really little more than mostly misogynistic, controlling, straw-man bull$hit, so therefore, I don't understand how anyone could be anything besides pro-choice.

So while I'm obviously not agreeing with Irish on the issue itself, I certainly can understand where he's coming from, even if it's from the complete other side -- how outrageous it can feel that there are actually people that don't agree with you on an issue like this.

[/defend irish]

It's all straw man arguments. I guess I consider myself pro-life despite this quiz portraying me as a complete Kucinich man...but in the end I defy my religion and my pro-life position in that I honestly feel if my 12 year old daughter is violently raped and becomes pregnent I think I would want her to get an abortion and if that is my position it would be quite hard for me to protest an abortion that anyone receives for whatever reason. The violent pro-lifers anger me and make no sense. IN the end if you are really pro life this issue has to be addressed from the bottom up...not from legislation from top down. And the fact remains that absolutely no republican wants to outlaw abortion as it is a key note issue that they can pound and pound and pound as long as it is out there. And many Catholics vote simply on this one single issue and they do not want to lose those votes.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think that you're parsing it too much. I certainly "get" why people who are anti-choice are anti-choice -- as in, I grasp the crux of their argument.

With that said, I think it's really little more than mostly misogynistic, controlling, straw-man bull$hit, so therefore, I don't understand how anyone could be anything besides pro-choice.

So while I'm obviously not agreeing with Irish on the issue itself, I certainly can understand where he's coming from, even if it's from the complete other side -- how outrageous it can feel that there are actually people that don't agree with you on an issue like this.

[/defend irish]

I think you covered all bases there

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think that you're parsing it too much. I certainly "get" why people who are anti-choice are anti-choice -- as in, I grasp the crux of their argument.

With that said, I think it's really little more than mostly misogynistic, controlling, straw-man bull$hit, so therefore, I don't understand how anyone could be anything besides pro-choice.

So while I'm obviously not agreeing with Irish on the issue itself, I certainly can understand where he's coming from, even if it's from the complete other side -- how outrageous it can feel that there are actually people that don't agree with you on an issue like this.

[/defend irish]

Brian,
I don't have any desire to control anyone and I think it's overly simplistic to characterize folks that way...if a person believes that life begins before birth then how can they support abortion? In their eyes...your position is the one that's controlling in that you wish the ultimate control...ie: whether someone lives or dies! This is an issue driven by belief, and denying the validity of another's beliefs is what causes most of the world's problems. And please, don't fall into the pathetic trap of using each side's "buzz words"...it's not a matter of being "pro-choice" or "pro-life", it's a matter of being pro or anti abortion!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian,
I don't have any desire to control anyone and I think it's overly simplistic to characterize folks that way...if a person believes that life begins before birth then how can they support abortion? In their eyes...your position is the one that's controlling in that you wish the ultimate control...ie: whether someone lives or dies! This is an issue driven by belief, and denying the validity of another's beliefs is what causes most of the world's problems. And please, don't fall into the pathetic trap of using each side's "buzz words"...it's not a matter of being "pro-choice" or "pro-life", it's a matter of being pro or anti abortion!

If a person believes that life begins at conception, they won't have an abortion.

If a person believes that the thing implanted in the uterine wall is not life, they will feel comfortable having an abortion.

That, is called choice. It's not falling into a "pathetic trap of using each side's 'buzz words'" when it's the the very definition of choice that I support.

I have little need for the labels of "pro-life" or "pro-choice," but if people are going to use "pro-life" I'm going to feel free to call it what it is, and that's anti-choice.

[ddthetide]

i'm with Giuliani and McCain. thats who i liked before i took the survey.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

If a person believes that life begins at conception, they won't have an abortion.

If a person believes that the thing implanted in the uterine wall is not life, they will feel comfortable having an abortion.

That, is called choice. It's not falling into a "pathetic trap of using each side's 'buzz words'" when it's the the very definition of choice that I support.

I have little need for the labels of "pro-life" or "pro-choice," but if people are going to use "pro-life" I'm going to feel free to call it what it is, and that's anti-choice.

Brian,
I agree regarding the individual examples you mention EXCEPT for one thing, if a person believes it is life, they can hardly stand mutely by while, in their eyes, others "kill" said life. If a person believes it is little more than a growth then they can hardly stand mutely by while others deny the woman the opportunity to be free of same....that's where things get difficult not to mention complex! You know my belief..."if ye harm none, do as ye will"...but if I believe harm is being done...?! As a feminist and by my religious beliefs, I firmly support individual choice and individual responsibility...but that also demands that I speak out against something I believe is wrong. There is nothing anti-choice in my position. Again, don't reduce my beliefs to a slogan.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian,
I don't have any desire to control anyone and I think it's overly simplistic to characterize folks that way...if a person believes that life begins before birth then how can they support abortion? In their eyes...your position is the one that's controlling in that you wish the ultimate control...ie: whether someone lives or dies! This is an issue driven by belief, and denying the validity of another's beliefs is what causes most of the world's problems. And please, don't fall into the pathetic trap of using each side's "buzz words"...it's not a matter of being "pro-choice" or "pro-life", it's a matter of being pro or anti abortion!

See, I understand that people think life starts at different points.Some people actually believe life starts very early in the process,or they believe that they need to follow their religion (that tells them life begins very early on.)That's your belief .Follow your beliefs with your body,or your wife's body etc. To me,it's an incredible leap to extend that belief into making law forcing others to follow your personal belief on the subject.I see it as an incredible intrusion,and for the most part,it's simply people imposing their religious fews on those who don't share their religion at all.None of us wants anybody to go through pain.If there is a nervous system developed enough "to feel" anything at all,then I can see forcing somebody(by law) to carry on with that pregnancy.If you can justify something by protecting somebody from pain,then fine,but this is mainly about things like "soul" ...."sacred" ...."my beliefs"...etc.,and none of that is based on facts.It's all personal belief stuff,and that needs to be kept from being imposed on those who don't agree with you.You may feel it,but it's not a good enough reason for you to be able to impose it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Brian,
I agree regarding the individual examples you mention EXCEPT for one thing, if a person believes it is life, they can hardly stand mutely by while, in their eyes, others "kill" said life. If a person believes it is little more than a growth then they can hardly stand mutely by while others deny the woman the opportunity to be free of same....that's where things get difficult not to mention complex! You know my belief..."if ye harm none, do as ye will"...but if I believe harm is being done...?! As a feminist and by my religious beliefs, I firmly support individual choice and individual responsibility...but that also demands that I speak out against something I believe is wrong. There is nothing anti-choice in my position. Again, don't reduce my beliefs to a slogan.

Says the man who two posts back used the terms "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion."

"Pro-abortion" is perhaps the single most wild and fallacious of all of the abortion-related slogans.

The rest is an old song and dance that we've already been over that I don't particularly feel like slogging my way through again. It's tiresome (as I'm sure it is for anti-choicers too), because it's really impossible to have any legitimate, rational debate with (not necessarily you, but the general composite anti-choicer) the type who yammers their ass off about protecting life while loving the death penalty, loving war, and creaming their pants over torture more than any other group of people in this country.

Pro-life my ass.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

See, I understand that people think life starts at different points.Some people actually believe life starts very early in the process,or they believe that they need to follow their religion (that tells them life begins very early on.)That's your belief .Follow your beliefs with your body,or your wife's body etc. To me,it's an incredible leap to extend that belief into making law forcing others to follow your personal belief on the subject.I see it as an incredible intrusion,and for the most part,it's simply people imposing their religious fews on those who don't share their religion at all.None of us wants anybody to go through pain.If there is a nervous system developed enough "to feel" anything at all,then I can see forcing somebody(by law) to carry on with that pregnancy.If you can justify something by protecting somebody from pain,then fine,but this is mainly about things like "soul" ...."sacred" ...."my beliefs"...etc.,and none of that is based on facts.It's all personal belief stuff,and that needs to be kept from being imposed on those who don't agree with you.You may feel it,but it's not a good enough reason for you to be able to impose it.

Scuds,
I agree...I don't think banning abortion is the way to deal with the issue; you are correct that it is largely a matter of belief (although there are issues regarding sociological aspects as I mentioned). But I do believe that it is everyone's responsibility to speak out regarding their individual beliefs. in the end, each of us must follow what we believe is the correct path...and each of us remain responsible for our acts. I do believe that it is unfortunate that the government (in this case the Supreme Court) "legalized" abortion...my belief is that decriminalizing rather than legalizing would have been the appropriate path...unfortunately that horse has long since ran away and there is no use to close the barn door via law.