Manduro - best horse on the planet

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by gallant bloom

lol but u
still suck.

That's not very nice, is it......
I do know all of your secrets, remember

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by gallant bloom

remember to
ignore silly boy
this weekend.

hopefully
he gets a
different
jock.

nunes sucks.
this list sucks
u suck.

Nah nah nah na nah, Nunes is up.

(Sorry).

I don't have a pick for race 1..... yet.

Did you see this? HKJC inquiry.....

The Stewards today concluded their inquiry which commenced on 1 January 2008 into the running and riding of SILLY BOY. On 1 January 2008, evidence was taken from M Nunes, rider of the horse, and Mr K L Tsui, assistant trainer to Mr A T Millard, trainer of the horse. As Mr Millard was absent from Hong Kong, the Stewards adjourned the inquiry.

On that day, Jockey Nunes said he had been instructed by Mr Tsui to ride the horse back in the field due to the horse having drawn the outside barrier. He said accordingly when the gates opened he took hold of SILLY BOY in an endeavour to carry out his instructions. He said SILLY BOY proved difficult to settle in the early stages but then relaxed rounding the turn at the 800 Metres and was able to close the race off quite well.

Mr Tsui confirmed he had been directed by Mr Millard to instruct Jockey Nunes to ride the horse at the rear of the field due to the wide draw.

Further evidence was today taken from Mr Tsui and Jockey Nunes and evidence was also taken from Mr Millard and Mr K W Hui, manager of AA84 syndicate, the owner of SILLY BOY.

Mr Millard confirmed as he was not in Hong Kong at the time, he had advised Mr Tsui by telephone to instruct Jockey Nunes to ride the horse quietly due to the horse racing over 1400 Metres but in particular the fact that it had drawn the outside barrier and that the race was being run on the A course which in his opinion favoured horses coming from back in the field. He said he made this decision as in the horse¡¦s three race starts since last winning over 1200 Metres on 9 September 2007, the horse had weakened in the Straight after being ridden in forward positions. He said he was of the belief that from barrier 14 too much use would have to be made of SILLY BOY in the early stages for the horse to be able to take up a forward position and then be able to finish the race off. He said he was particularly mindful of the fact that SILLY BOY had not been finishing its races off of late when drawn relatively good barriers, so he was concerned that the horse would again fail to finish the race off after having to be made use of in order to cross from the outside barrier. Mr Millard said after viewing the videos of the race, he was completely satisfied with the manner in which Jockey Nunes had ridden the horse in that he had been able to have SILLY BOY settle for the majority of the race and therefore it was able to close the race off fairly.

Jockey Nunes reaffirmed his earlier evidence that after proving somewhat difficult to settle in the early stages when being taken in behind FLYING KENNY, the horse then relaxed well for him and that he was satisfied with the position that he had obtained in the race with the favourite STEEL NERVES racing to his inside. He again said when ridden in this manner over this course and distance the horse had closed the race off in his opinion better than it had done of late.

Mr Hui advised the inquiry that he was somewhat surprised by the instructions issued to Jockey Nunes on this occasion as SILLY BOY had been a horse which had usually assumed a forward position in its races. However, for the reasons outlined by Mr Tsui in Mr Millard¡¦s absence, he respected the decision to ride the horse quietly from the outside barrier. Mr Hui further advised the inquiry that he was satisfied with the manner in which Jockey Nunes had ridden the horse in that he had been able to get the horse to travel kindly for the majority of the race and that the horse had been able to finish the race off. Mr Hui confirmed he had supported SILLY BOY in this race.

When questioned regarding the riding instructions for SILLY BOY in the Michael¡¦s Choice Handicap scheduled to be run at the Sha Tin racemeeting on Sunday 20 January 2008, Mr Millard said as the horse has drawn barrier 3, it would be his intention to instruct Jockey Nunes to have the horse race in a forward position. However, he added that in the future should SILLY BOY draw a wide gate and the circumstances of the race be such that SILLY BOY may be suited by being ridden more quietly, he would give consideration to adopting those tactics.

Mr Hui was advised his evidence was accepted. Mr Tsui and Jockey Nunes were advised their evidence would be reported. Mr Millard was advised in the circumstances the Stewards would take no further action other than to report his evidence, however, he was reminded of the importance of horses trained by him being ridden in a consistent manner wherever possible.

[Exterminator]

I asked this on a different thread, but is Manduro the first German bred to get top ranking?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Look, it didn't write it. This list is compiled by some of the most knowledgable people around the world in this sport. If this is the list they have come up with, I'm prepared to go with what they say.

You always go on about your beloved HK horses, but truth is, most of them aren't as good as many european or american horses. Take Viva Pataca for instance. He was just a handicapper in England, yet he can win multiple Gr1 races in HK. The racing there is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is probably the best racing package available and is certainly closing in on Europe and America, but at the moment, the horses aren't quite as good as the best available from Europe and America. Give it a few years and that will more than likely change.

These rankings are compiled by people from all around the world, so don't think it's done by people who don't like racing in the Far East.

You didn't rate Manduro, and that is your opinion, but he was the best horse on the planet last year, period.

EDIT: why does Echelon deserve to be higher? I agree about Ramonti, but as I say, the people that have done this know FAR more than either me or you or anyone else on here.

I couldn't agree more. Don't let emotion get in the way of understanding truth. The racing in the Far East is improving and as you say, in time, it will probably be right on par with the best in the world. But that time is not yet and because of the short time they've been at it, it couldn't be expected that they are on par with the best in the world at this point.

As for your position that these people know far more than you do and you are prepared to accept their rankings, I couldn't disagree more. What makes them a better judge of talent than you? It would be different if they saw the races and you didn't but since you can see the races just as they can, their opinion is no more valid than yours is. I don't know how long you have been a racing fan but I've been one for just over 20 years. Why should I accept their opinions as the facts if my eyes and experience tell me something else?

[brockguy]

World Champion 2003 - US Bred (Hawk Wing)
World Champion 2004 - US Bred (Ghostzapper)
World Champion 2005 - Irish Bred (Hurricane Run)
World Champion 2006 - Argentinian Bred (Invasor)
World Champion 2007 - German Bred (Monsun)

World Champion 2008 - ???

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I couldn't agree more. Don't let emotion get in the way of understanding truth. The racing in the Far East is improving and as you say, in time, it will probably be right on par with the best in the world. But that time is not yet and because of the short time they've been at it, it couldn't be expected that they are on par with the best in the world at this point.

As for your position that these people know far more than you do and you are prepared to accept their rankings, I couldn't disagree more. What makes them a better judge of talent than you? It would be different if they saw the races and you didn't but since you can see the races just as they can, their opinion is no more valid than yours is. I don't know how long you have been a racing fan but I've been one for just over 20 years. Why should I accept their opinions as the facts if my eyes and experience tell me something else?

I completely agree with the 2nd part.

The first.....if that time is not yet, as you say, how will anyone know when that time comes? Isn't there a chance it's now but too little people are paying attention?

Emotion influences my truth, sure, but what bothers me a little are that there are obvious standouts who are lumped in a package labled "far East horses". I don't know if this makes sense.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I completely agree with the 2nd part.

The first.....if that time is not yet, as you say, how will anyone know when that time comes? Isn't there a chance it's now but too little people are paying attention?

Emotion influences my truth, sure, but what bothers me a little are that there are obvious standouts who are lumped in a package labled "far East horses". I don't know if this makes sense.

Believe me, you'll know when that time comes. As KG said, Hong Kong and Japan haven't been in this game as long as some of the mjor racing countries. You'll see a shift when horses from both Hong Kong and Japan start to ship over here and to America to win some of the Gr races.

Until then, we know they are slightly behind.

It isn't now, and believe me, people are certainly paying attention. A few years ago I wouldn't have even bothered looking at this thread, but the last couple of years I've realised that the racing in Hong Kong and Japan is moving so quickly, that it won't be long until they are very close to a par with Britain, Ireland and America.

Viva Pataca probably wouldn't win a Grou/grade one race in Britain, Ireland or America. It's just like Helene Mascot, he wasn't top class over here, but he's good enough to win a Gr1 on his first start in HK and over a trip short of his best. I think this shows everyone that they aren't quite at the level we have here and you have in America.

Give it three or four years, and I think they will be there. New stallions, better breeding programmes. It all takes time.

Please don't read this as a HK or a Japan throw back. They are making many people sit up and watch now. They know they can reach the same heights as other nations, and as long as they keep that belief, they will get there sooner rather than later.

[brockguy]

i dont think Japan and HK should be banded together. Japan has showed on many occasions abroad that they ARE on a par with the top racing nations in Europe, Dubai and Australia. Hong Kong has done it but to a lesser extent..

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by brockguy

i dont think Japan and HK should be banded together. Japan has showed on many occasions abroad that they ARE on a par with the top racing nations in Europe, Dubai and Australia. Hong Kong has done it but to a lesser extent..

No they shouldn't and I really shouldn't band them together.

I don't agree that Japan are on a par. Not yet, anyway. Deep Impact was one of the best horses they have had, but when it came to trying to beat the best Europe had to offer, he couldn't quite do it.

Both countries will soon be on a par, and if they keep progressing at this rate, they will soon be at the top.

I think it's great.

Would love to see more horses come over here from Hong Kong and Japan.

[brockguy]

well in 2006, there wasnt a horse in Europe better than Deep Impact according to the world rankings. Yes he lost in the Arc, but I certainly believe that he wasnt at his best for a number of reasons.

Japan showed when they came over with Agnes World and El Condor Pasa that they meant business and were among the elite. It took a phenomenal performance from Montjeu to deny ECP an unreal win in the Arc.

[my miss storm cat]

This horse is not on par, so I'll use him as an example.

Where were you in 2001?

This horse was having his first race.

June 22nd, Newmarket, Jamie Spencer up, a field of 11.

He won, won the next and the following 6 races was 2nd twice and 3rd twice.

Went to Hong Kong where he got a new name, raced a few times going off at 99/1, and in his first Group 1 outing beat the legendary Cape of Good Hope.

No need to go in with every minute detail BUT season after season, his rating went up, up, up.

This horse is not on par.

He defeated and dethroned his illustrious stable-mate Silent Witness (talk about shock and awe), he travelled (Tokyo in '05 where he was 4th, 5th in the Dubai Duty Free in 2006, he won the Grade 1 Yasuda Kinen in 2006 and was 3rd in the Dubai World Cup, his first time on dirt, last year).

... and through all this? Injuries and viruses.

He's nine years old now with no retirement plans in sight.

Bullish Luck is not on par.

There are quite a few like him... Group 1 horses, aging now but as game and determined as ever.

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/h...&Option=1#htop

It's not that I'm offended that others don't share my view... I'm not.

It's more that it strikes me as a little sad that you can have a three-time Melbourne Cup winner like Makybe Diva or a horse like Vengeance of Rain and they're still treated as if they're not equal somehow. That i don't get, never will, but that's life.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

EDIT: why does Echelon deserve to be higher?

The Matron Stakes, the Celebration Mile.....

She's more deserving than some (or at least i think so).

[Exterminator]

Originally Posted by brockguy

World Champion 2003 - US Bred (Hawk Wing)
World Champion 2004 - US Bred (Ghostzapper)
World Champion 2005 - Irish Bred (Hurricane Run)
World Champion 2006 - Argentinian Bred (Invasor)
World Champion 2007 - German Bred (Monsun)

World Champion 2008 - ???

Thanks for that.

[Exterminator]

Who was the Japanese filly that won so huge in CA, I think, and then was retired right after a year or two back? Does anyone remember?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Exterminator

Who was the Japanese filly that won so huge in CA, I think, and then was retired right after a year or two back? Does anyone remember?

Cesario.

[Exterminator]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

Cesario.

That's the one. Thank you. She was awesome.

[NoChanceToDance]

mmsc, all I have said is that I don't believe that Vengeance Of Rain, Viva Pataca, Bullish Luck, Good Ba Ba would be quite good enough to win a good Group/Grade 1 race here or in America.

Good Ba Ba only just defeated Creachadoir, and although he is pretty good over here, he isn't in the top five-ten milers in Europe (I doubt).

Believe me, they are not overlooked. I'm saying it the way I see it (maybe I'm wrong). I cannot see any of these horses I have listed winning a good standard Group/Grade one race in Britain, Ireland or America. Yet many of them are the very best in HK.

Please don't take this the wrong way. It doesn't mean I'm overlooking them, I doesn't mean I don't rate the horses. You know how much I like Viva and Good Ba Ba, but I'm not letting my heart rule my head. I'm looking at this firmly from a handicapping point of view.

If people in HK firmly believed they could beat the best in Europe, they would be over here. They would be shipping to America, running in the Breeders' Cup every year. The very fact that they're not suggests that they don't believe they are quite capable yet. The important word there is "yet", they certainly will be capable enough.

I promise you, they are not getting overlooked. A few years ago, they probably were. You can see yourself how far they have come in so little time. To my knowledge, three or four years ago, we never even got to see the racing from HK on TV. There was no demand, no one was interested. Now we can see as much of the big racing from HK as we like. People (including me) get up early to watch it.

Europe and America better start getting worried because the horse from HK and Japan are coming to get 'us', but right now, they are still slightly behind.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

This horse is not on par, so I'll use him as an example.

Where were you in 2001?

This horse was having his first race.

June 22nd, Newmarket, Jamie Spencer up, a field of 11.

He won, won the next and the following 6 races was 2nd twice and 3rd twice.

Went to Hong Kong where he got a new name, raced a few times going off at 99/1, and in his first Group 1 outing beat the legendary Cape of Good Hope.

No need to go in with every minute detail BUT season after season, his rating went up, up, up.

This horse is not on par.

He defeated and dethroned his illustrious stable-mate Silent Witness (talk about shock and awe), he travelled (Tokyo in '05 where he was 4th, 5th in the Dubai Duty Free in 2006, he won the Grade 1 Yasuda Kinen in 2006 and was 3rd in the Dubai World Cup, his first time on dirt, last year).

... and through all this? Injuries and viruses.

He's nine years old now with no retirement plans in sight.

Bullish Luck is not on par.

There are quite a few like him... Group 1 horses, aging now but as game and determined as ever.

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/h...&Option=1#htop

It's not that I'm offended that others don't share my view... I'm not.

It's more that it strikes me as a little sad that you can have a three-time Melbourne Cup winner like Makybe Diva or a horse like Vengeance of Rain and they're still treated as if they're not equal somehow. That i don't get, never will, but that's life.

I was there when Al Moughazel made his debut at Newmarket. He wasn't capable of winning in listed company in England, and after taking a bit of time in HK, he goes and wins his first Gr1.

We won't agree, and that's fine, but that seems to tell me that the Gr1 races in HK are weaker than most of the Gr1, and maybe even Gr2 races in Britain.

You don't become a racing 'superpower' overnight, it takes time. Hong Kong have been in this game for next to no time at all. You can't expect them to rated on a par with the best in Europe and America. A few years ago, if someone would have said to me that by 2008 HK would have a few horses capable of racing in Gr races in this country I probably would have disagreed, but they certainly are capable, and give them another few years and they will be capable of not only racing in these races, but winning them, too.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

mmsc, all I have said is that I don't believe that Vengeance Of Rain, Viva Pataca, Bullish Luck, Good Ba Ba would be quite good enough to win a good Group/Grade 1 race here or in America

I'm not fighting and I'm not offended or anything, but i don't agree with this.... I seriously think they would be more than capable of winning G1's over here anyway.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I'm not fighting and I'm not offended or anything, but i don't agree with this.... I seriously think they would be more than capable of winning G1's over here anyway.

They are a confident bunch, in both HK and Japan. I just feel that if THEY thought the horses were capable, we would have seen so many more horses in Europe and America than we currently do.