Words from John Murtha

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

John Kenneth Galbraith left his readers with a "sadly relevant fact: "Civilization has made great strides ... But it has also given a privileged position to the development of weapons and ... the reality of war. Mass slaughter has become the ultimate civilized achievement. ... War remains the decisive human failure."

Some wars are necessary though, however most aren't.

[Downthestretch55]

Maybe in the past. I sure hope "civilization" has evolved beyond that.
In these times, it is my opinion that ALL wars occur due to choice.

It comes down to the realization...fight first, talk later...or talk first and prevent fighting later. That's the decision.

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Will humans ever learn this? I certainly hope so.
In the words of the Dylan song, "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?"...
"When will they ever learn?"

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Maybe in the past. I sure hope "civilization" has evolved beyond that.
In these times, it is my opinion that ALL wars occur due to choice.

It comes down to the realization...fight first, talk later...or talk first and prevent fighting later. That's the decision.

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Will humans ever learn this? I certainly hope so.
In the words of the Dylan song, "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?"...
"When will they ever learn?"

You don't live in the real world. Just look at the world today, people fight in the name of God and other ridiculous things, just like they always have. What do you do if North Korea attacks another country, talk to them? What if you live under a dictator in Africa, are you going to talk to him or try to get rid of him? There are bad people out there, unfortunately some of the people that claim to represent the good are often part of the problem.

Afghanistan is Iraq on a much smaller scale. It is just as chaotic. Afghanistan's EARLY success led to the belief the same could be done in Iraq. Afghanistan will go long run just like Iraq, right or wrong.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You don't live in the real world. Just look at the world today, people fight in the name of God and other ridiculous things, just like they always have. What do you do if North Korea attacks another country, talk to them? What if you live under a dictator in Africa, are you going to talk to him or try to get rid of him? There are bad people out there, unfortunately some of the people that claim to represent the good are often part of the problem.

I guess I really don't live in the "real world".
Last time I looked, North Korea hasn't attacked any country since 1948-9.
Africa? We're talking about recently independent countries after many years of European colonialization. Don't know of an African country attacking any first world ones.
Are we talking about Israel justifying the carnage in retaliation for two kidnapped soldiers?
Explain "good" and "bad". Sounds like black and white, and, as we both know there are only shades of grey.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

I guess I really don't live in the "real world".
Last time I looked, North Korea hasn't attacked any country since 1948-9.
Africa? We're talking about recently independent countries after many years of European colonialization. Don't know of an African country attacking any first world ones.
Are we talking about Israel justifying the carnage in retaliation for two kidnapped soldiers?
Explain "good" and "bad". Sounds like black and white, and, as we both know there are only shades of grey.

I don't agree with what Israel is doing or what the US is doing in Iraq.

However, the US war in Afghanistan was 100% necessary. There is no talking with them. Please give me your solution about how we were going to deal with Afghanistan?

As for N. Korea, what is your solution if they attack, just have a nice chat with them? LOL.

Originally Posted by boldruler

I don't agree with what Israel is doing or what the US is doing in Iraq.

However, the US war in Afghanistan was 100% necessary. There is no talking with them. Please give me your solution about how we were going to deal with Afghanistan?

As for N. Korea, what is your solution if they attack, just have a nice chat with them? LOL.

Please tell me how Israel is supposed TO TALK to Hezbollah? Sorry but this group has got to be totally disarmed for anything to stop for the long haul. And HOW IS talking with the Euros and the China/Russia (we love this stuff, cause they do) is going to end this thing with any REAL MEANING FOR THE FUTURE.

Who is not in the real world here?

Originally Posted by pgardn

Please tell me how Israel is supposed TO TALK to Hezbollah? Sorry but this group has got to be totally disarmed for anything to stop for the long haul. And HOW IS talking with the Euros and the China/Russia (we love this stuff, cause they do) is going to end this thing with any REAL MEANING FOR THE FUTURE.

Who is not in the real world here?

Hezbollah is not even there fighting. They left a few people to kill some Israelis and ran off to Beirut

This is a great Newsweek piece and explains why Israel will fail. Israel should get out of the Stone Age thinking and start moving to other countries. Give back all the land, eventually these crazy extremists will use a nuclear weopon and blow up all of Israel anyway. This notion that there is holy land is absurd.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14066288/site/newsweek/

Nothing suggests that Hassan Nasrallah, the Hizbullah leader, is stupid enough to stand and fight a conventional war. Sure, he will sacrifice zealots as cannon fodder in the south. But he and the senior ranks have already retreated into Beirut. Israel can destroy much of Hizbullah’s stockpiles and bunkers near the border. But that will buy, at best, no more than a couple of years’ respite. Staking out a strip of land, whether by Israel or by some international force, will not bring peace. The one certainty is that the assault on Lebanon will bring a surge of recruits to Hizbullah, which will now be as powerful a magnet for young Shiite firebrands as Al Qaeda is for their Sunni cohorts.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I don't agree with what Israel is doing or what the US is doing in Iraq.

However, the US war in Afghanistan was 100% necessary. There is no talking with them. Please give me your solution about how we were going to deal with Afghanistan?

As for N. Korea, what is your solution if they attack, just have a nice chat with them? LOL.

OK... we share similar opinions regarding Israel and Iraq.
Afghanistan was seen as the harbor for Al Queda training courtesy of the Taliban. Osama was cornered at the border area near Pakistan. Then, the troops were called off. How come? I don't have the answer. I hope you know more that I do. Attention was diverted to the invasion of Iraq.
The current state of affairs in Afghanistan is that the Taliban again controls the two districts outside of Kabul. War lords control the north. The opium crop (the only economic cash crop) is the biggest ever.
So...was it 100% necessary? I don't think so.
Was it a 100% failure? I do think so.
Solution? Immediate American withdrawl. Democracy does not come from the barrels of guns of invaders, only from the free will of the people.
Democracy CAN NOT be imposed.

Now, about North Korea. How about diologue without the other five nations that Bush wants to include? Just diplomats from the US and NK sitting down at a table. North Korea has indeed "postured". That comes from their failed economy, starving populous, and isolation. My guess is that they feel that THEY are the ones that expect to be attacked. They haven't attacked anyone. Their bogus "missile program" is easily seen. It's a bit pathetic.
So, on that one, I say open a door rather than slam it.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Maybe in the past. I sure hope "civilization" has evolved beyond that.
In these times, it is my opinion that ALL wars occur due to choice.

It comes down to the realization...fight first, talk later...or talk first and prevent fighting later. That's the decision.

"Those that ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them."

Will humans ever learn this? I certainly hope so.
In the words of the Dylan song, "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?"...
"When will they ever learn?"

I think that was Pete Seeger, actually. I grew up listening to the Kingston Trio's cover of it (my dad loves the Kingston Trio).

Seeger? Seger? Seager? How spell?

[Downthestretch55]

GR,
Now that I think about it, you're right...Pete Seeger.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

OK... we share similar opinions regarding Israel and Iraq.
Afghanistan was seen as the harbor for Al Queda training courtesy of the Taliban. Osama was cornered at the border area near Pakistan. Then, the troops were called off. How come? I don't have the answer. I hope you know more that I do. Attention was diverted to the invasion of Iraq.
The current state of affairs in Afghanistan is that the Taliban again controls the two districts outside of Kabul. War lords control the north. The opium crop (the only economic cash crop) is the biggest ever.
So...was it 100% necessary? I don't think so.
Was it a 100% failure? I do think so.
Solution? Immediate American withdrawl. Democracy does not come from the barrels of guns of invaders, only from the free will of the people.
Democracy CAN NOT be imposed.

Now, about North Korea. How about diologue without the other five nations that Bush wants to include? Just diplomats from the US and NK sitting down at a table. North Korea has indeed "postured". That comes from their failed economy, starving populous, and isolation. My guess is that they feel that THEY are the ones that expect to be attacked. They haven't attacked anyone. Their bogus "missile program" is easily seen. It's a bit pathetic.
So, on that one, I say open a door rather than slam it.

Afghanistan need to be completely cleaned up. It would have been if not for this ridiculous war in Iraq. The problem with Afghanistan is that you really don't want terrorists running it because it has similar to the equivalent of oil there. The opium trade alone could fund worldwide terror. The US needs to help them build an economy based on something else.

As for letting Bin Laden go, the problem is Pakistan. Pakistan is really not that friendly to the US. Pakistan is a much bigger problem than people think.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13990130/site/newsweek/

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

GR,
Now that I think about it, you're right...Pete Seeger.

Seeger. Thank you. I'm terrible at remembering names and their spellings, especially!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Afghanistan need to be completely cleaned up. It would have been if not for this ridiculous war in Iraq. The problem with Afghanistan is that you really don't want terrorists running it because it has similar to the equivalent of oil there. The opium trade alone could fund worldwide terror. The US needs to help them build an economy based on something else.

As for letting Bin Laden go, the problem is Pakistan. Pakistan is really not that friendly to the US. Pakistan is a much bigger problem than people think.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13990130/site/newsweek/

I don't know how the US is going to build an economy in Afghanistan. The task is far greater than the rebuilding of New Orleans (and we know how that is going).
In Afghanistan, there is no highway system, limited electricty, and poor soils.
The only crop that seems viable is opium. That's what the farmers know how to grow to obtain the best return on their investment.
So, I'd like to hear your thoughts as to how we (USA) "clean" it up.
To me, it's a task that is far larger than our willingness to do so, and we DO in fact have domestic issues that need to be addressed.

Now, about Pakistan. That one could become a very big problem very quickly.
We tread a very fine line. India is our "check". The US has to play those two cards very carefully.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

I don't know how the US is going to build an economy in Afghanistan. The task is far greater than the rebuilding of New Orleans (and we know how that is going).
In Afghanistan, there is no highway system, limited electricty, and poor soils.
The only crop that seems viable is opium. That's what the farmers know how to grow to obtain the best return on their investment.
So, I'd like to hear your thoughts as to how we (USA) "clean" it up.
To me, it's a task that is far larger than our willingness to do so, and we DO in fact have domestic issues that need to be addressed.

Now, about Pakistan. That one could become a very big problem very quickly.
We tread a very fine line. India is our "check". The US has to play those two cards very carefully.

If you leave Afghanistan alone it will become the capital of the terrorists. It is no different than giving over a land with oil. Tremendous amounts of cash available for terrorists. How do you rebuild it? You have to build their infrastructure and let the people that do it get the money, not Dick Cheney's friends. No other way.

Pakistan is the biggest problem in the world. The media just hasn't caught on yet.

[Downthestretch55]

BR,
Do you really think that the US is capable of building a viable economy in Afghanistan?
If so, how?
I'd really like to know. Karzai can't even leave Kabul to tour the country he leads.
Is there a "magic wand" or "special potion" that I don't know about?
So, please tell me how the US is going to do what you propose.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

BR,
Do you really think that the US is capable of building a viable economy in Afghanistan?
If so, how?
I'd really like to know. Karzai can't even leave Kabul to tour the country he leads.
Is there a "magic wand" or "special potion" that I don't know about?
So, please tell me how the US is going to do what you propose.

I don't know if they can now. If you took the $500 billion we wasted on Iraq, you could have done it easily. The idiots just chose the wrong country to rebuild. They gave us that lie about rebuilding Iraq with their own oil money and now the money is gone. That said, we might just have to find a few hundred billion and rebuild afghanistan. That, or leave.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I don't know if they can now. If you took the $500 billion we wasted on Iraq, you could have done it easily. The idiots just chose the wrong country to rebuild. They gave us that lie about rebuilding Iraq with their own oil money and now the money is gone. That said, we might just have to find a few hundred billion and rebuild afghanistan. That, or leave.

Unfortunately, we both see the same hand writing on the wall.
By the way, Afghanistan won't become the capital of terrorism. It's been decentralized to many other countries.
A shame.
Are we winning the "War on terror"?
If so..proof?
If not...other than "stay the course"..how would you alter strategies?

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Unfortunately, we both see the same hand writing on the wall.
By the way, Afghanistan won't become the capital of terrorism. It's been decentralized to many other countries.
A shame.
Are we winning the "War on terror"?
If so..proof?
If not...other than "stay the course"..how would you alter strategies?

Afghanistan will become the source of money for terrorism.

Are we winning the "War on terror", of course not. This idiot has just made more terrorists. The semi-idiot before him didn't do too good a job himself. He basically pretended there was no terrorism.

The only way to deal with the rise of terrorists is through funding of covert actions in terrorist states. You need countries to root out their own terrorists, the US though will have to fund it. They won't do it themselves.

Personally, I think religious wackos will eventually blow up the world. Probably within the next 100-200 years.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Afghanistan will become the source of money for terrorism.

Are we winning the "War on terror", of course not. This idiot has just made more terrorists. The semi-idiot before him didn't do too good a job himself. He basically pretended there was no terrorism.

The only way to deal with the rise of terrorists is through funding of covert actions in terrorist states. You need countries to root out their own terrorists, the US though will have to fund it. They won't do it themselves.

Personally, I think religious wackos will eventually blow up the world. Probably within the next 100-200 years.

1) I agree with your first point.
2) Your second point needs a bit more realism. The US already funds covert actions in terrorist states. As yet, quite unsuccessful.
3) I think it's a lot less than 100 years. Think less than 10.