Andy Beyer, Dutrow, DRF

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He told me he didn't do it.

I have no doubt at all that's true

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Gamblers know who the cheaters are, and gamblers know the testing is an expensive waste of time that doesn't catch them.

You may actually be part right

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Riot

Ya think?

I like to see testing results to see who is cheating. Others don't need them.

Your constantly referring to horseplayers as gamblers would be insulting if we didn't consider the source. I understand it somehow justifies your lack of involvement in this game to make that theoretically insulting reference, as somehow it places you above others, when in fact all it does is expose you as being petty.

However, having said that, you also demean yourself further by failing to recognize that a serious student of this game can identify when horses perform in extraordinary and, at least somewhat, inexplicable ways. Now, all of us also know that many things are possible, and hardly cry foul every time a horse runs out of its skin, however, when we see the same trainers ( and, no, I'm not naming names ) doing it repeatedly, with different horses, we see a pattern and are hardly jumping to any conclusions to be suspicious.

Believe it or not, many of us also benefit financially in these situations, however that doesn't stop us from also being suspicious. In fact, it are those very suspicions that lead us to these sometimes scores. Sorry to inform you, but it's not all sour grapes by losing horseplayers, but quite often cries for reform in an industry that we love, devote a great deal of our lives to, and support financially. I realize these are not concerns of yours, and that is fine, but do yourself a favor and stop lowering yourself to a level of insulting those of us that do.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by pweizer

This was the post that I was referring to. I respect everyone's opinion. However, when people throw our accusations with no personal knowledge, it is irresponsible.

What accusations?

Marty Wolfson sounds like a nice guy. I think it's very generous of him to invite Beyer to see "some of the treatments we give, legally, that can improve a horse."

My point was that Pletcher and Mott must obviously be unaware of these great treatments Marty is legally doing....as he has quite magically transformed horses from them - and other competent and respected trainers - into classy stake horses.

[Cannon Shell]

"There are some frauds so well conducted that it would be stupidity not to be deceived by them."
Charles Caleb Colton

[Mike2456]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Your constantly referring to horseplayers as gamblers would be insulting if we didn't consider the source. I understand it somehow justifies your lack of involvement in this game to make that theoretically insulting reference, as somehow it places you above others, when in fact all it does is expose you as being petty.

However, having said that, you also demean yourself further by failing to recognize that a serious student of this game can identify when horses perform in extraordinary and, at least somewhat, inexplicable ways. Now, all of us also know that many things are possible, and hardly cry foul every time a horse runs out of its skin, however, when we see the same trainers ( and, no, I'm not naming names ) doing it repeatedly, with different horses, we see a pattern and are hardly jumping to any conclusions to be suspicious.

Believe it or not, many of us also benefit financially in these situations, however that doesn't stop us from also being suspicious. In fact, it are those very suspicions that lead us to these sometimes scores. Sorry to inform you, but it's not all sour grapes by losing horseplayers, but quite often cries for reform in an industry that we love, devote a great deal of our lives to, and support financially. I realize these are not concerns of yours, and that is fine, but do yourself a favor and stop lowering yourself to a level of insulting those of us that do.

Your ignorance is showing.

[Scav]

Here we go.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Mike2456

Your ignorance is showing.

In the interest of full disclosure, I thought I would point out the second of your five posts on this board ( two of which are in off topic ).....I was particular excited to see it was in a " Happy Birthday " thread....one for Riot in case anyone is confused.

Originally Posted by Mike2456

Happy Birthday to my good friend Beth, who got me to join up here. Thanks for all you've done for us over the years, Doc. Hope you heal fast and can get that namesake dog out west this fall! Have a great one.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by pweizer

These kind of attacks drive me crazy. Have you ever met Marty Wolfson? I would bet that most who criticize him here have not yet they know for a fact that he is a crook. Amazing.

Paul

Um, Sir:

Did you ever see Miesques Approval in the paddock before the BC, Sunshine Millions, or one of the other stakes races he won? I mean see him up close? Put it this way, it reminded me of when Hulk Hogan played the character Thunderlips in Rocky III....took that robe off....you get the picture. Not to mention he was completely undone...I have never seen a horse act as insane as M.A.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

In the interest of full disclosure, I thought I would point out the second of your five posts on this board ( two of which are in off topic ).....I was particular excited to see it was in a " Happy Birthday " thread....one for Riot in case anyone is confused.

Sorry to disappoint, Secret Agent guy, but that's not exactly a secret nor recent. Yes, when my friend Mike is at my house he will use my computer, and yes I make him use his own signon and not mine if he reads DT.

You might look at my posts from the past, where I've posted here when he was signed on, and my post showed up under his signon, and I've corrected it and posted it those were my words? (not Mike's)

And yeah, he's right to be pissed at your ignorant comments and too bad he didn't type what I heard him say out loud.

I've been a fan of this sport for a long, long time, and I certainly push enough money through the windows to have a very vested interest. I see the same situations everyone else does. That I dare to interpret them differently than you do, or even how many people here do - based upon my own knowledge, contacts and experience - well, get over it. You're free to keep commenting.

I don't get insulted to be called a gambler. You shouldn't be, either.

(checking three times to make sure I am signed on under my own account)

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by jwkniska

Wolfson was caught with a positive at AP a couple years ago on million preview day and had to give back the purse $$ and said he'd never ship another horse to IL.

That would be wrong. The ruling was overturned on the trace levels of Class 4 medications isoxsuprine (blood flow promotion) and naproxen (equine aspirin) for which Can't Beat It tested. And additionally, Illinois changed their threshold rules to be in line with the rest of the country's racing jurisdictions.

[AeWingnut]

someone once said that if you told them they were cheating - 60,000 people would line up to try and figure out with who.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That would be wrong. The ruling was overturned on the trace levels of Class 4 medications isoxsuprine (blood flow promotion) and naproxen (equine aspirin) for which Can't Beat It tested. And additionally, Illinois changed their threshold rules to be in line with the rest of the country's racing jurisdictions.

Very true statement. Wolfson had a fit when this went down and 'vowed to never return to the State'. I think this year he ran a horse in a stakes at Arlington and their was an article about him returning.....

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Here's a sampling of some of the major recent Wolfson form reversals involving both his horses and himself.

* Here's the form of It's a Birds back when Todd Pletcher trained him. He ran away with last weekends $1 million Sunshine Million Classic for Wolfson.



As you can see ... the horse was pretty much non-competitive in small field allowance races and minor stakes. Pletcher tried him on all three different forms of surfaces and wasn't getting much from him.


* Here's the form of Ikigai, Rockerfeller, and Misque's Approval.

Ikigai dominated a Graded Stake at GP two Saturday's ago running a 113 Beyer. As you can see - he was a faint-hearted maiden for Pletcher. He was actually entered in a maiden claiming turf sprint the first time Wolfson got him.

Rockerfeller was a complete and utter bum with a 1-for-15 lifetime record before Wolfson got him. He consistantly ran Beyers in the 70's and had no talent at all. He was off the board in back-to-back N1X alw races at FG before being transformed into one of the nations best sprinters.

the old guy Miesque's Approval had been off the board in back to back claiming races for Bill Mott before being transfered to Wolfson. Just two starts - and less than 3 months later - he took the Sunshine Million Turf at 49/1. Two races after that he upset Artie Schiller in the Makers Mark. He capped the year with a lopsided blowout win in the Breeders Cup Mile.




It seems alarming that Wolfson is all of a sudden turning your typical maidens, claimers, and allowance horses into elite stake horses ... but what is far more troubling to me is the dramatic form reversal that Wolfson has made with his trainer profile and trainer stats.

From a decade long span between 1996 through 2005 - Wolfson has year in and year out been very consistant. His win % was between 15-to-23% - and his yearly ROI had never once risen as high as $1.80 in any of those 10 years.

Basically, the guy was just your solid 20% trainer who placed horses in spots they could win - but who's horses typically were overbet.

From '96 to '05 he was 374-for-1,869 (20% wins) $1.54 ROI.

Now, the same consistant guy who shows a 23% loss on the betting dollar over an entire decade - and never once raises his ROI as high as $1.80 for 10 straight years does the following....

2006: 44-for-168 (26% wins) $2.89 ROI
2007: 52-for-191 (27% wins) $2.15 ROI
2008: 62-for-204 (30% wins) $1.98 ROI
2009: 4-for-23 (17% wins) $2.69 ROI

From '06 to '09 he is 162-for-586 (27% wins) $2.32 ROI

A solid seven percent spike in win percentage and an otherwordly $0.78 spike in ROI!!

You ought not be a genius to see that something happened precisely between 2005 and 2006 that shifted Marty Wolfson from a solid dependable trainer into an absolute super trainer who's stable yields huge win percentages and spectacular profits from a betting standpoint.

He's obviously one of the trainers out there who has a real edge right now. Is it something illegal? Who knows. Is it something detectable? .. who knows. It would be extremely irresponsible to pretend that he doesn't.

[King Glorious]

As I said before, one of the things I'll always regret is that I never got a chance to see what Wolfson could have turned Cigar and Theatrical into after getting them out of Mott's incapable hands.

[Danzig]

this thread had not yet seen the light of day (so to speak) when i went to bed last night.
but i had read on drf where dutrow had gotten his panties in a wad over beyers article, and expected something would show here soon. i find it amusing that a guy with his track record regarding positives, overages, etc, would be soooo hurt and insulted that someone dared question any of his amazing results. why do you think it might be, mr. dutrow, that anyone would raise an eyebrow when one of your horses runs a lifetime best? i'm sure it's absolutely because the horse gained 50 pounds and had a dental appointment. sounds perfectly plausible to me.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

As I said before, one of the things I'll always regret is that I never got a chance to see what Wolfson could have turned Cigar and Theatrical into after getting them out of Mott's incapable hands.

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Kasept

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

you know one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other. plenty of big, strapping guys out there who shoot blanks.
BUT, we all have heard that certain things used in horses leads to sterility, sooo who knows? but there are a lot of big performing horses who did just fine in the shed....

[golfer]

Looking at It's A Bird's TG sheet, the corresponding races for Pletcher, mostly on turf and synth, were three 5's, a 6, and a 7. His one race at Bay Meadows, his only dirt try, was a 9.

With Wolfson, all on Florida dirt, he has run 4, 3, three 1's, and a 2, not including Saturday's performance. All this improvement was accomplished at age 5.

I have no problem with Wolfson's coming on Steve's show yesterday and defending himself, needless to say. It was his "blanket" defense of everyone else that I found questionable. Not to mention, he's the first person I have ever heard defend Scott Lake.

The attitude that Beyer's column is bad for the game, and therefore should not have been written, is something I completely disagree with. This pervasive attitude of when something happens, deal with it quietly and then sweep it under the rug, is the absolute reason we are having this discussion NOW.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you know one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other. plenty of big, strapping guys out there who shoot blanks.
BUT, we all have heard that certain things used in horses leads to sterility, sooo who knows? but there are a lot of big performing horses who did just fine in the shed....

Steroids have been in wide use for years and years in racing, and there was nothing remotely wrong with them being used on Cigar. Bill Mott moved Cigar up BIG TIME off Alex Hassinger, but that has been conveniently ignored in the dew-eyed frenzy of homage.