So just WHO targets and kills civilians??

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Somer: As I stated ..it would have been prudent to PM, instead of this forum. Firstly: I apologize if I offended you for what I said...but you don't get to cut out the parts of the BOOK because it interferes with your interpretation of life. And, believe me,Somer....what I stated wasn't said with reference to this time in your life! I enjoy you, especially since you give DTS what for(that flamer) It would be good to continue, but I'm not gonna do an ESPN thing over here. So...Pm me and we'll play Spiritual chess if you wish...Peace

Timmgirvan,
You can label me a "flamer". It's quite ok with me.
I forgive you for saying so.
If you are unable to see any truth in the words I quote or the things I say, that's also fine with me.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you see any similartity between the Warsaw ghetto (1942) and Gaza (2006)?

Here are some more words that might further inflame you..."treat others as you would have them treat you".

DTS

[Downthestretch55]

For those that continue to believe in the lies of those that have proven their hypocrisy...
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0815-31.htm

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

For those that continue to believe in the lies of those that have proven their hypocrisy...
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0815-31.htm

I'm as open minded as they come but I refuse to read any more from Common Dreams...find a site that cares about looking for the truth not forcing every square object into the round hole of some perverse form of political solipsism!

[Downthestretch55]

Hey Somerfrost,
I didn't write it, the senior senator from Mass did.
If you have no tolerance for views other than those that you "want" to read...
Do me a favor, don't read it!
DTS

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Hey Somerfrost,
I didn't write it, the senior senator from Mass did.
If you have no tolerance for views other than those that you "want" to read...
Do me a favor, don't read it!
DTS

I didn't read it...you come here day after day posting from this site, I don't care if the Pope wrote it, the only reason it appears in Common Dreams is it suits their political agenda! Try actually thinking for yourself instead of parroting this useless garbage...I read points of view from across the political spectrum and study philosophies far more diverse than most...you come here with the same tired regurgitated crap day after day! We get it, Democrats good, Bush bad!

[timmgirvan]

DTS: How unfortunate that you chose to respond to something that wasnt directed to you, and failed to answer what I directed to you. I teasing called you a flamer because(as you've admitted before) you see things like the commondreams 'tripe' as truth, and your absolute 'bent' about Bush et all is regretable. When you quote something out of context and use it to bash someone you do it a disservice! I don't know much about Warsaw'42, but I doubt it has much to do with Gaza'06. As I stated before, Israel has had a bullseye on their back since 1948...they've withstood 20,000,000 Arabs at their throats and World opinion and scorn that is undeserved. People that call for peace, yet hold a dagger behind their backs. As for that last retort, I don't believe I have treated you badly, in any sense.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I didn't read it...you come here day after day posting from this site, I don't care if the Pope wrote it, the only reason it appears in Common Dreams is it suits their political agenda! Try actually thinking for yourself instead of parroting this useless garbage...I read points of view from across the political spectrum and study philosophies far more diverse than most...you come here with the same tired regurgitated crap day after day! We get it, Democrats good, Bush bad!

Somerfrost,
There are many things I've stated that didn't come from commondreams.
As I've prviously stated, if you don't want to read it, then do me a favor and don't.
If you really think that I am "parroting useless garbage"...then that's just another of your judgements.
For someone who is so very wise, that "reads across the political spectrum and studies philosophies far more diverse than most"...your close mindedness is quite obvious. Maybe it's time to open yourself to the ideas of others.
It's not only the misguided direction that this great country has been taken by people that have also made up their minds to pursue faulty agendas rather than discuss serious concerns with others, but also, the tactic of judging those that see differently, as your post demonstrates.
Your words are a microview of that which is at stake in the macroview.
Yes, the tragedy of those that inhabit the planet we share continues to be compromised by those that maintain extremely narrow views.
I feel great pity for you and those that your narrow thinking supports.

DTS

[Danzig]

to be perfectly honest, if i had to choose between you, DTS, and somer, as to who held the narrow view, well...dts in a landslide.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

DTS: How unfortunate that you chose to respond to something that wasnt directed to you, and failed to answer what I directed to you. I teasing called you a flamer because(as you've admitted before) you see things like the commondreams 'tripe' as truth, and your absolute 'bent' about Bush et all is regretable. When you quote something out of context and use it to bash someone you do it a disservice! I don't know much about Warsaw'42, but I doubt it has much to do with Gaza'06. As I stated before, Israel has had a bullseye on their back since 1948...they've withstood 20,000,000 Arabs at their throats and World opinion and scorn that is undeserved. People that call for peace, yet hold a dagger behind their backs. As for that last retort, I don't believe I have treated you badly, in any sense.

Tim,
I asked that question because I do see a parallel between the confinement of the Jewish people in the Warsaw ghetto (1942) and their confinement of the Palestinians in Gaza (2006).
I DO see things differently than many people. I just don't tolerate being labeled or judged for presenting my opinions. Nor should anyone.
In other words, attack the premise that I present, not ME!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wishing to discuss peace.
The old Jewish proverb states that "There is power in words."
I hope they use them first if there is a problem, rather than F-16's with JDAMS.
Hatred once created takes a very long time to be forgotten.
Peace can only happen through trusting in meaningful dialogue. That assumes that there isn't a dagger behind their backs.
Both sides have been very wrong in this controversy.
It is my hope that there are some that arre wise enough to begin something that is right.
DTS

[timmgirvan]

DTS: first things first..I did not attack you in any way...I said commondreams was 'tripe'! I referenced you being a Flamer teasingly because we had talked about it in another thread(last month I think) The Jews in Warsaw were prisoner helplessly herded there while the Palestinians are there because Israel relented and gave them space. That comparison isn't close. That line about hatred..what's up with that? Israel didn't foment the Bloodlust of the Arab countries! You say 'talk peace' with a civilization that is dutybound to erase your people from the face of the Earth(Arab words) Israel didnt start this...but, by God, they will finish it if pressed. Would you sit down at a table from someone who's 'suckerpunched' you before? I think not...without guarantees....which The Arabs will never do( rather they might because they know in their hearts what their sacred mission is...Death to Israel and the USA

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Dateline: Tel Aviv, Israel

Here are some FACTS:

There you go again, Dixie ...

... trying to muddle the argument with facts.

Hey ... can't you let your fellow forum members have their fantasies? Reality is very painful for them ... let the delusional be delusional.

[Scurlogue Champ]

I want to be wiccan!!! Where do you sign up?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

to be perfectly honest, if i had to choose between you, DTS, and somer, as to who held the narrow view, well...dts in a landslide.

I would agree with you there. You have one person who has probably voted for multiple people in both parties. Then you have another person who has probably never voted for one of the parties in his entire life, yet he calls the other person close-minded.

[timmgirvan]

Who's you?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Somerfrost,
There are many things I've stated that didn't come from commondreams.
As I've prviously stated, if you don't want to read it, then do me a favor and don't.
If you really think that I am "parroting useless garbage"...then that's just another of your judgements.
For someone who is so very wise, that "reads across the political spectrum and studies philosophies far more diverse than most"...your close mindedness is quite obvious. Maybe it's time to open yourself to the ideas of others.
It's not only the misguided direction that this great country has been taken by people that have also made up their minds to pursue faulty agendas rather than discuss serious concerns with others, but also, the tactic of judging those that see differently, as your post demonstrates.
Your words are a microview of that which is at stake in the macroview.
Yes, the tragedy of those that inhabit the planet we share continues to be compromised by those that maintain extremely narrow views.
I feel great pity for you and those that your narrow thinking supports.

DTS

DTS, I think your words speak for themselves....when you throw out words such as "pity" when describing someone with a viewpoint other than your own, you can hardly claim to be open-minded! I do listen to all points of view THEN I make my own decisions based on my intellect (or lack thereof), experience and personal philosophy. You quote from those holding a viewpoint you share and scoff at anything that deviates. The Bush bashing goes on everywhere now days, you are far from alone and many of my Wiccan friends would agree with your point of view (that alone should give you pause), but twisting every news bite into a "Bush and the Jews are bad" mantra simply demonstrates a predisposition towards a strident philosophy of hatred...you can cloak it in religious references all you want but the anti-Jew emotions seep through!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by moodwalker

I want to be wiccan!!! Where do you sign up?

Making fun of another's religion may seem funny to you Moodwalker...sorta use to it to be honest, but I simply consider the source!

[SentToStud]

Terrorists and extremists exist in all ME nations. Take a look at the Kahn Kahane Chai and The Jewish Front groups in Israel, just to name a couple.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Terrorists and extremists exist in all ME nations. Take a look at the Kahn Kahane Chai and The Jewish Front groups in Israel, just to name a couple.

Israel had a Prime Minister killed by a fanatical right wing member. Nobody ever said Israel or the US was absolutely clean of homegrown terrorists. Timothy McVea...

But honestly. By bringing up abberations in order to try and make a fair comparison between the State of Israel and Hezbollah is regrettable and disingenuous. Does Hezbollah let Jewish members of its "government" shout down an act during a "Knisset" (sp?) meeting?
Get real. There is no comparison on the whole. Anyone can pick individual events and use them to represent the whole. It is a very easy trick, but it is not helpful in searching for what really is happening.

What scares me is when a large group starts to proclaim that it is under seige and then perpetuates violent acts TARGETING TOTALLY INNOCENT PEOPLE claiming that God is on its side. And the moderate members of the so called down-trodden groups stop speaking because they are scared they will meet a similar fate or because they start believing. This my good friends of the board reminds me of a little party that got started in the 1930's in Germany and spread like wildfire. The movement of radical Islamic groups that has continue to rise and the MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS start backing down is very much like facist movements that we have seen in the past.
1. We got screwed
2. God is on our side (cant argue with that)
3. Kill in the name of God, sacrifice yourself to kill infidels
4. The majority of sane members of this group step aside and join.

This is a very scary trend that took total destruction of said group in the past. Total destruction. Not little incursions and constantly backing off because the problem is too big. This is very very frightening and any sane minded individuals should recognize this as a recipe for disaster.

If any of you have read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich you know the parallels I am talking about. It is absolutely chilling.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Israel had a Prime Minister killed by a fanatical right wing member. Nobody ever said Israel or the US was absolutely clean of homegrown terrorists. Timothy McVea...

But honestly. By bringing up abberations in order to try and make a fair comparison between the State of Israel and Hezbollah is regrettable and disingenuous. Does Hezbollah let Jewish members of its "government" shout down an act during a "Knisset" (sp?) meeting?
Get real. There is no comparison on the whole. Anyone can pick individual events and use them to represent the whole. It is a very easy trick, but it is not helpful in searching for what really is happening.

What scares me is when a large group starts to proclaim that it is under seige and then perpetuates violent acts TARGETING TOTALLY INNOCENT PEOPLE claiming that God is on its side. And the moderate members of the so called down-trodden groups stop speaking because they are scared they will meet a similar fate or because they start believing. This my good friends of the board reminds me of a little party that got started in the 1930's in Germany and spread like wildfire. The movement of radical Islamic groups that has continue to rise and the MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS start backing down is very much like facist movements that we have seen in the past.
1. We got screwed
2. God is on our side (cant argue with that)
3. Kill in the name of God, sacrifice yourself to kill infidels
4. The majority of sane members of this group step aside and join.

This is a very scary trend that took total destruction of said group in the past. Total destruction. Not little incursions and constantly backing off because the problem is too big. This is very very frightening and any sane minded individuals should recognize this as a recipe for disaster.

Well, you do hold the majority viewpoint. But, disingenous or regretable as it may seem to you, I think a lot of people feel there is way more to it.

Those MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS you refer to have now lived their adult lives seeing the well spoken tones of reasonable people approach as flawed, failed and fruitless.

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.

So, yeah, that along with the Palestinian issue has the moderate Arabs, leaders or otherwise, having very good reason to hold the West in distrust and this is where the appeal of the edgier and worse (you call it what you want, that's ok) Islamic factions gain traction.

You could likely go on at length about how none of this rationalizes terrroists or behavior that supports terrorist groups and you'd be right. That does not, however, change the game. The game gets changed by starting to understand and appreciate how and why adversaries act as they do.

The U.S. now is seen by Arabs as so strongly Pro-Israeli / Anti-Arab that there is not a chance in hell that America CAN be a mediating leader in the region.

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s