11/11 ATR: The Great HOTY Debate

[hockey2315]

Very nice post, Steve.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

pejorative

I was thinking the same thing.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I was thinking the same thing.

I laughed..

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Kasept

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

I thought I heard Jon White on ATR explain it differently, it is simply who one thinks is 'Horse of the Year'. I'll have to review the show when I get home but that is how I thought he termed it.

[slotdirt]

I'm disinclined to make the efforts to compare these two fields, but who beat more GI winners? G2? Overall stakes winners?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

With all due respect, I think it is statements like this that prompt the emotion that you have seen in the debate on this board. People don't like being told that they are "irrational" or without cognitive ability just because they have a different opinion.

Agree to disagree. Fine. Don't tell someone that they are stupid.

WTF?? Are we all becoming a bunch of hypersensitive wusses? This is starting to sound like a soap opera.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I'm disinclined to make the efforts to compare these two fields, but who beat more GI winners? G2? Overall stakes winners?

dont know.. but there were tons of stakes winners and GI winners in the Preakness, Haskell and Woodward. And considering Rachel faced twice as many horses I imagine rachel has faced more.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by joeydb

WTF?? Are we all becoming a bunch of hypersensitive wusses? This is starting to sound like a soap opera.

Like this is going to help...

If anything it just shows how passionate these 2 horses evoke. Nothing wrong about that, we could go back to Curlin of last yrs HOY convo..zzz

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Wow. "That statement" that I made was about as coldly unemotional as it could be. Not sure what alternate universe lexicon or pejorative equates what I wrote with calling someone stupid..

If we want to split hairs on definitions, fine. I don't think people like to be told that they lack the ability to reason.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

If we want to split hairs on definitions, fine. I don't think people like to be told that they lack the ability to reason.

So it's OK to disagree and for people from each side to posit their own opinions but they have to be sure not to be bold or overly forthright in their opinion?

NT

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by CSC

Well this is going to help...

If anything it just shows how passionate these 2 horses evoke. Nothing wrong about that, we could go back to Curlin of last yrs HOY convo..zzz

Agree with understanding the passion. Would a similar debate over "Ali vs Frasier" devolve into all the sensitivity? I also agree that we are fortunate to see both of these fillies run this year -- their performances, along with the Mine That Bird run in the Derby made for a stellar highlight reel.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

There is a definition of Horse of the Year. It's the horse that accomplished the most over the course of their season. There may be tangential influences, but the race record compiled and gravity thereof remains the overwhelming criteria. There is no possible interpretation of their comparative seasons that places Zenyatta even at a level of equality with Rachel Alexandra in 2009.

Is the Eclipse awards definition of Horse of the Year, or is it your definition of what you think the award should be? My sense has always been that there has never been a clear-cut definition for any of the Eclipse awards, to some people's frustration and to others' preference.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

If we want to split hairs on definitions, fine. I don't think people like to be told that they lack the ability to reason.

If the shoe fits....

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Is the Eclipse awards definition of Horse of the Year, or is it your definition of what you think the award should be? My sense has always been that there has never been a clear-cut definition for any of the Eclipse awards, to some people's frustration and to others' preference.

The definition of horse of the year is already in the title....

"the year" not "the day"

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So it's OK to disagree and for people from each side to posit their own opinions but they have to be sure not to be bold or overly forthright in their opinion?

NT

As evidenced by the "vote" on this board and many other racing sites, many think this is a close call. There's a difference between having a strong opinion and telling someone else that they reached a different conclusion because they lack the ability to think rationally.

[joeydb]

Are you calling into the show tonight?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

The definition of horse of the year is already in the title....

"the year" not "the day"

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Kasept

For those wanting some detail to appreciate the nuances of the campaigns...

Zenyatta ran in 5 races this year over 7 months (May 23-Nov 7) over 3 racetracks versus 33 entrants (25 horses)... 4 of which were repeats of races she ran in and won last year (Milady, Vanity, Hirsch, Lady's Secret) and one the Breeders' Cup Classic. She never left California in the 4 races and the Cup happened to be at one of the tracks she frequented most in her career (5/5). Anyway, she won all the races in which she ran, all on synthetic surfaces, and with authority.

Rachel Alexandra ran in 8 races this year over 7 months (Feb 15-Sept 5) over 7 different race tracks versus 50 entrants (47 horses). She demolished her own sex by a cumulative 40 lengths in 5 tries including 2 Oaks (Fair Grounds and Kentucky) and faced 3yo males twice, including in an American classic (Preakness) and in another highly regarded Gr. I (Haskell). She completed her year against older males in the Gr. I Woodward. Her winning a race versus elder males is an accomplishment that hadn't been done in more than 125 years in American racing.


Zenyatta beat these 25 horses in 2009:

---14 females---
Life Is Sweet (3X) - 2009 GI WInner
Allicansayiswow (2X) - 2009 G2 placed
Gambler's Justice - 2009 Listed Stakes placed
Champagne Eyes (2X) - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Taste's Sis - 2009 MSW winner
Briecat (2X) - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Dawn After Dawn (2X) - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Hot n' Dusty - 2009 AOC winner
Modification -
Anabaas Creation (2X) - 2009 G1 placed
Lethal Heat (2X) - 2009 G1 placed
Tidal Dance
Cocoa Beach
Made for Magic - 2009 CLM winner
----11 males----
Gio Ponti - 2009 GI winner
Twice Over - 2009 GI winner
Summer Bird - 2009 GI winner
Colonel John - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Richard's Kid - 2009 GI winner
Awesome Gem - 2009 G2 winner
Regal Ransom - 2009 GI winner
Mine That Bird - 2009 GI winner
Rip Van Winkle - 2009 GI winner
Einstein - 2009 GI winner
Girolamo - 2009 G2 winner


Rachel Alexandra beat these 47 horses in 2009:

---23 females---
Afleet Deceit (2X) - 2009 G2 placed
Peach Brew - 2009 G3 winner
Affirmed Truth
Hello Again
Lake Lugano
My Spanx
Lil' Hottie
Bootprints
Flying Spur (2X) - 2009G2 placed
Our Dahlia - 2009 ALW winner
Four Gifts - 2009 G3 winner
African Skies
War Tigress
Just Jenda - 2009 G3 winner
Bon Jovi Girl - 2009 G2 placed
Cats
Stone Legacy - 2009 GI placed
Be Fair - 2009 G3 winner
Nan - 2009 GI placed
Gabby's Golden Gal - 2009 GI winner
Tweeter - 2009 MSW winner
Malibu Prayer - 2009 Stakes winner
Flashing - 2009 GI winner
---24 males---
Mine That Bird - 2009 GI winner
Musket Man - 2009 G2 winner
Flying Private - 2009 G2 placed
Big Drama - 2009 Stakes winner
Papa Clem (2X) - 2009 G2 winner
Terrain - 2009 G2 placed (and deceased)
Luv Gov
General Quarters - 2009 G1 winner
Friesan Fire - 2009 G2 winner
Pioneerof the Nile - 2009 GI winner
Tone It Down
Take the Points - 2009 G1 winner
Summer Bird - 2009 GI winner
Munnings - 2009 G2 winner
Duke of Mischief - 2009 Stakes winner
Atomic Rain - 2009 Listed Stakes winner
Bunker Hill - 2009 Stakes placed
Macho Again - 2009 GI winner
Bullsbay - 2009 GI winner
Asiatic Boy - 2009 GI placed
It's a Bird - 2009 G2 winner (well, sort of)
Past the Point - 2009 G3 placed
Cool Coal Man -
Da' Tara

I'm sure someone already covered this, but that's the best I could figure in so far as the relative qualifications of horses faced by both Z and Rachel.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

Again, I think this would be great and all had RA raced past Sept 5, and I know I will be reminded of her starting early in the year, her campaign was super up until that point, but in retrospect one would have to wonder which race would we have rather seen her in, The Martha Washington or the BC Classic.

February 16, March 14, April 5, May 1, May 16, June 27, August 2, September 5, those were the dates of her races. I have no idea what you're trying to say and am completely unable to understand why her not running after 9/5 is such a problem to you. It is almost as ridiculous as someone saying Zenyatta can't win HOTY because she didn't start before 5/23.

NT