No Munnings for the Cigar

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Love those short fields.

Uh-oh... I suspect the NYRA police will begin to browbeat you for complaining about the product.

[Gander]

I think Kodiak Kowboy is a pretty nice horse who has won a lot of races...
Better? He hasnt garnered the fan base of Fabulous Strike but hes hardly disgraced himself against that rival and people talk about Fabulous Strike like he's Housebuster. And he may not quite be up to the talent level or hypothetcial level of Warriors Reward, but hes a horse I get excited to watch.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by Gander

Kodiak Kowboy going for his Eclipse Award. He wins and he is a lock for sprinter of year.
Driven by Success trying to win his first Grade 1.
Vineyard Haven, Pyro and Bribon all trying to close out wonderful years in their own right with another Grade one win. Not a good betting race by any stretch of teh imagination but a great race to watch and root!

How can Kodiak Kowboy win an Eclipse when he didn't run on the "Championship" day in the "Not Quite Turf Sprint"?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

How can Kodiak Kowboy win an Eclipse when he didn't run on the "Championship" day in the "Not Quite Turf Sprint"?

Yes, you're right. His connections are weak. They didn't want to run on a foreign third surface. They also ducked the superior competition in the division by running in the Don Levine at Philly when they clearly should have run in the Tom Fool because that was a much tougher spot.

How dare they turn down the "Super Bowl of racing."

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Gander

Kodiak Kowboy going for his Eclipse Award. He wins and he is a lock for sprinter of year.
Driven by Success trying to win his first Grade 1.
Vineyard Haven, Pyro and Bribon all trying to close out wonderful years in their own right with another Grade one win. Not a good betting race by any stretch of teh imagination but a great race to watch and root!

While you may be correct in him getting the eclipse it is absolutely wrong to let this race be counted as a sprint. It's not the Cigar Sprint.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It's not the Cigar Sprint.

It's sure drawn many top sprinters in its history, and happened to draw 2 multiple Grade 1 winning sprinters in the field this year.

[hockey2315]

I'm not sure this locks things up for Kodiak Kowboy over Zensational even though I think KK is a superior horse who has faced much better competition this year. They each have three grade 1 wins and all of Zensational's are at actual sprint distances.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

I'm not sure this locks things up for Kodiak Kowboy over Zensational even though I think KK is a superior horse who has faced much better competition this year. They each have three grade 1 wins and all of Zensational's are at actual sprint distances.

The difference is that Kodiak Kowboy actually beat other Grade 1 horses when he won his Grade 1s.

Zensational beat Global Hunter (who won a Grade 1 going 9f on turf) and, I kid you not, two horses that ran for $25k in the previous year (Nikkisgoldensteed, Rush With Thunder).

Not sure if Talkin To Mom Roo is an ex-claimer, but the name sort of suggests it.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The difference is that Kodiak Kowboy actually beat other Grade 1 horses when he won his Grade 1s.

Zensational beat Global Hunter (who won a Grade 1 going 9f on turf) and, I kid you not, two horses that ran for $25k in the previous year (Nikkisgoldensteed, Rush With Thunder).

Not sure if Talkin To Mom Roo is an ex-claimer, but the name sort of suggests it.

Can you read?

I said exactly what you said in fewer words.

I think Zensational is a totally overrated bum, but to think Kodiak Kowboy is a lock to win the Eclipse now is wishful thinking.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Can you read?

I said exactly what you said in fewer words.

I think Zensational is a totally overrated bum, but to think Kodiak Kowboy is a lock to win the Eclipse now is wishful thinking.

And the point of mine was to elaborate on the "better competition".

In fact, the difference in competition was staggering (not merely "better") and by that allow should make Kodiak Kowboy the clear frontrunner.

But hey, maybe they'll change the name of the Ancient Title to the Zensational to sway the vote.

[Gander]

Zensational may get 1 or 2 trivial votes but I dont think you can build any kind of reasonable case for any more than that. He won the most watered down Grade 1 sprints in the history of this division, with Talkin to Mom Roo probably the best horse he beat. He never left the state of CA and the poly surface. I think you can build a better case for the horse who beat him in the BC Sprint- Dancing in Silks. At least he beat Gayego and Fatal Bullet on their preferred surface and distance, and racked up a couple of other wins. Next would be Informed Decision who I would guess will get a few votes just for overall consistency and sheer number of wins. But she never faced the males and flopped badly in her race at Saratoga.

The obvious winner should and will be Kodiak Kowboy who has 3 Grade Ones against superior competition, at 3 different distances. When was the last time we've seen a horse win a Grade 1 at 6F, 7F and 1 mile? Not to mention a good 2nd in another Grade 1 (Forego), and 1 other win. Lets see he beat:

Fabulous Strike (twice)
Bribon
Munnings
Vineyard Haven
Pyro
Tale of Ekati

All of these horses have won at least one Grade 1 except Munnings. All much better than any of the horses any of the other contenders have beaten.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It's sure drawn many top sprinters in its history, and happened to draw 2 multiple Grade 1 winning sprinters in the field this year.

So what, it isnt a sprint. It is hardly important in the grand scheme but it drives me crazy when it is referred to when determining a sprint champion. It would be like using Gio Ponti's seond place finish in the BC Classic as a factor in him being turf champion. It may play like turf, but it isnt. The Cigar may have some sprinters in it but it isn't a sprint.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So what, it isnt a sprint. It is hardly important in the grand scheme but it drives me crazy when it is referred to when determining a sprint champion. It would be like using Gio Ponti's seond place finish in the BC Classic as a factor in him being turf champion. It may play like turf, but it isnt. The Cigar may have some sprinters in it but it isn't a sprint.

Well, I'm just looking at it historically. Look at the 1-2-3 horses in its entire history and more often than not, you will find top sprinters, as opposed to top route horses. Beyond Cigar, Congaree, and Forty Niner, most other winners were at their best around one turn.

If you want to call it a pointless race as far as Eclipse Awards are concerned (or better yet, point out the need for a top Miler award), that's fine. Nonetheless, certainly victories by horses outside their respective divisions are taken into consideration. Doesn't Zenyatta's win in the BC Classic against males help her cause for the older mare Eclipse?

And just for those keeping score, Kodiak Kowboy made the lead at the 1/16th pole, so technically, they were still sprinting at that point...

[Gander]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Well, I'm just looking at it historically. Look at the 1-2-3 horses in its entire history and more often than not, you will find top sprinters, as opposed to top route horses. Beyond Cigar, Congaree, and Forty Niner, most other winners were at their best around one turn.

If you want to call it a pointless race as far as Eclipse Awards are concerned (or better yet, point out the need for a top Miler award), that's fine. Nonetheless, certainly victories by horses outside their respective divisions are taken into consideration. Doesn't Zenyatta's win in the BC Classic against males help her cause for the older mare Eclipse?

And just for those keeping score, Kodiak Kowboy made the lead at the 1/16th pole, so technically, they were still sprinting at that point...

And its not like this is Kodiak's best distance. Hes a true sprinter. Look at his record this year as well as historically. 1 mile may not be considered a sprint, but given this field and the fact its still a 1 turn race, I dont see how anybody can say this race shouldnt count. How about those garbage Grade 1 races Zensational controlled from gate to wire? Because they are "sprints" they should somehow get this horse an eclipse? I think the emphasis should be placed on quality fields over minor technicalities like the added furlong.
Regardless, is there a better candidate for this award this year? I want to laugh very hard when I keep hearing Fabulous Strike in the argument.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While you may be correct in him getting the eclipse it is absolutely wrong to let this race be counted as a sprint. It's not the Cigar Sprint.

Why is this even a debatable question? Sprint < mile ; Route > mile.

Changing definitions to hand out awards is just assinine