LM and Preachin' in the Classic

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Then why the heck is there a big giant B for Bute next to the weight in every California race on his record? Why would they make that distinction if the rules were the same?

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/lavaman.pdf

It is hard to get past the fact that the three races he was beaten by the most lengths in his entire career were also the three races he didn't have Bute.

The rules are the same in both states. In both states, bute is permissable if given the day before the race.

I don't care what the Racing Form says. They simply have a different way of denoting it in the Form for New York. In New York, I guess they consider that as long as bute is given the day before, that they should denote that the horse got no bute. In California, they consider a horse who got bute the day before to be on bute. The California method of denotation is the correct denotation in my opinion because bute is given in a shot and does not wear off for a couple of days. So a horse that is given bute the day before the race is on bute. We've had this conversation on this board several times. The rules are the same in New york and California. I've been in the business for over 20 years. I've run horses in both California and New York. We ran a horse in New York within the last year and he got bute the day before the race just like all our horses here in California.

If you don't believe me, call the racing office at Del Mar and call the racing office at Saratoga. They will tell you at both tracks that bute is permissable if given the day before the race.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't care what the Racing Form says. They simply have a different way of denoting it in New York. We've had this conversation on this board several times. The rules are the same in New york and California. I've been in the business for over 20 years. I've run horses in both California and New York. We ran a horse in New York within the last year and he got bute the day before the race just like all our horses here in California.

If you don't believe me, call the racing office at Del Mar and call the racing office at Saratoga. They will tell you at both tracks that bute is permissable if given the day before the race.

California

http://www.toconline.com/ownership/race-day.php

The only other kind of medication permitted in a horse´s bloodstream on race day is a small quantity of one of four "legal" anti-inflammatories - usually phenylbutazone, or "bute" - which will be indicated in The Racing Form with a capital "B" in the horse´s running lines (though all the anti-inflammatories are indicated with a "B"). Some trainers, in addition, will have the horse stand in a foreleg ice-bath for up to 90 minutes to relieve any nagging discomfort that might distract it from running its best race.

New York

http://www.racing.state.ny.us/horsedrugs.pdf

Either one, but no more than one, of the following two
non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs may be
administered by intravenous injection until 24 hours
before the scheduled post time of the race in which the
horse is scheduled to compete: flunixin, or
phenylbutazone.


New York is allowed up until 24 hours before, California is allowed in the horses system on race day.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

California

http://www.toconline.com/ownership/race-day.php

The only other kind of medication permitted in a horse´s bloodstream on race day is a small quantity of one of four "legal" anti-inflammatories - usually phenylbutazone, or "bute" - which will be indicated in The Racing Form with a capital "B" in the horse´s running lines (though all the anti-inflammatories are indicated with a "B"). Some trainers, in addition, will have the horse stand in a foreleg ice-bath for up to 90 minutes to relieve any nagging discomfort that might distract it from running its best race.

New York

http://www.racing.state.ny.us/horsedrugs.pdf

Either one, but no more than one, of the following two
non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs may be
administered by intravenous injection until 24 hours
before the scheduled post time of the race in which the
horse is scheduled to compete: flunixin, or
phenylbutazone.


New York is allowed up until 24 hours before, California is allowed in the horses system on race day.

Trust me, it's the same in both states when it comes to bute. Call the racing office if you don't believe me. In New York when they give a horse bute 24 hours before the race, it is still in their system for the race. In California, you are not allowed to give a horse any medication on race day with the exception of lasix. In California, bute has to be given the day before the race just like in New York.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I guess after he ran out of the detention barn last year and stopped like a wounded quail we all got pretty suspicious. Silver Train runs out of the detention barn Zieg and does quite well, care to comment on that? I think you are confusing two issues here.

Lava Man ran his last two races out of the detention Barn.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

California

http://www.toconline.com/ownership/race-day.php

The only other kind of medication permitted in a horse´s bloodstream on race day is a small quantity of one of four "legal" anti-inflammatories - usually phenylbutazone, or "bute" - which will be indicated in The Racing Form with a capital "B" in the horse´s running lines (though all the anti-inflammatories are indicated with a "B"). Some trainers, in addition, will have the horse stand in a foreleg ice-bath for up to 90 minutes to relieve any nagging discomfort that might distract it from running its best race.

New York

http://www.racing.state.ny.us/horsedrugs.pdf

Either one, but no more than one, of the following two
non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs may be
administered by intravenous injection until 24 hours
before the scheduled post time of the race in which the
horse is scheduled to compete: flunixin, or
phenylbutazone.


New York is allowed up until 24 hours before, California is allowed in the horses system on race day.

You can go the CHRB website for further clarification. I will read you rule 1843.5. It states that "One of the following non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications may be administered until 24 hours before the post time of the race in which the horse is entered under Rule 1844 of this division: 1. Phenylbutazone; 2. Flunixin; 3. Ketroprefen.

Originally Posted by somerfrost

According to his connections, he doesn't like being inside horses...Cory put him there for a specific reason but I suspect Lava Man wasn't happy! The fact that it didn't effect his race is very good news for them...he is very professional!

There is no doubt about this. And it really is not efficient for most horses to run that way. He was very uncomfortable in the first part of that race being on the inside. And his back end went wide on the turn home and he still prevailed easily. The horse is a very tough animal. Thats what I like. I actually dont care all that much if he only does this in Cali, the grit the horse has shown is to be admired.

I dont know how many times people just seem to look at pure talent and never really get down to the nuts and bolts ... and that is how badly does the horse want to run and win. Bernadini has not come close to facing this most valuable test. Of course I am partial to old claimers that dont give up even though they are lengths behind the leader. They will find some other horse in their range and try and put it to them. That has to be admired, and if there is a genetic component to this behavior, I dont know why people dont look for horses that show this trait and breed them more often.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You can go the CHRB website for further clarification. I will read you rule 1843.5. It states that "One of the following non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications may be administered until 24 hours before the post time of the race in which the horse is entered under Rule 1844 of this division: 1. Phenylbutazone; 2. Flunixin; 3. Ketroprefen.

Thanks for the info, I'll have to read into it more in the morning. The main difference I can find at this point is that CA has a set limit for how much you can have in your system in a post race test while NY just specifies that you can't have it 24 hours before post time. What really baffles me is that it is denoted in past performances. There would be no reason to do that if regulations were completely the same.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Thanks for the info, I'll have to read into it more in the morning. The main difference I can find at this point is that CA has a set limit for how much you can have in your system in a post race test while NY just specifies that you can't have it 24 hours before post time. What really baffles me is that it is denoted in past performances. There would be no reason to do that if regulations were completely the same.

In New York, they definitely have a limit as to how much you can have in your system. I think it's the same amount as in California. If you look it up, you will find that they definitely have a limit there.

If you can't find it on-line anywhere, you can always call the racing office. They will let you know what the legal limits are.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

But race day Bute is definitely something aids many horses. Cali has it, Ny doesnt. The analogy of taking aspirin the day before a headache instead of the day of was pretty clever.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

More like if he'd gone six furlongs without Bute and the aches and pains started up just like the three other races he's ran without it and folded up after six furlongs.

Do either of you guys ever admit you were plain wrong?! Yeah, the "aspirin the day before" analogy was "pretty clever". Too bad it had nothing to do with reality.

Corrected by both Cajungator and Rupert, but not a word from either of you about your mis-speaks.

--Dunbar

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Do either of you guys ever admit you were plain wrong?! Yeah, the "aspirin the day before" analogy was "pretty clever". Too bad it had nothing to do with reality.

Corrected by both Cajungator and Rupert, but not a word from either of you about your mis-speaks.

--Dunbar

I'll have to look into the limits some more and maybe even try calling the racing office to get the full scoop before I am going to claim I mis-spoke. The end result is the PPs show him on Bute in California and off everywhere else so until I get a reasoning for that difference I am not convinced that there is no difference. I thanked Rupert for the info he gave me and I will look further into the issue. This forum would be flooded with additional posts if everyone added an extra post for everytime they mis-spoke.

So then what other explanation is there for him being able to run well at all three California tracks but his three worst defeats are in the three times he left California? I don't believe that the quality of horses he faced outside of California were that much better than the quality of horses in those three races to explain the difference. I don't see the issue being him only liking the rock hard surfaces in California because he has also run so well on the turf. And I am absolutely positive that Lava Man can't recognize where the state boundary of California is and refuses to run hard once he is out of there. So the only remaining theories are that there are different drug standards in California, that he hates shipping, or sheer coincidence. I think the first and second may blend together a bit. O'Neill may know every trick of the trade to beat the system in California but may not know the same tricks while on the road.

[slotdirt]

Hmmm...I've always seen bute administered in a pill form, usually crushed in some feed.

[dr. fager]

I've seen the rule in both jurisdictions...could it be as simple as California requires it to be reported to the bettors as Lasix and such a requirement isn't in place for the rest of the country?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by dr.fager

I've seen the rule in both jurisdictions...could it be as simple as California requires it to be reported to the bettors as Lasix and such a requirement isn't in place for the rest of the country?

Certainly a possibility. Still baffling why they would waste a column on the Past Performances for it. They are already trying to clutter as much info into a tiny space as possible. Why include meaningless info?

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Certainly a possibility. Still baffling why they would waste a column on the Past Performances for it. They are already trying to clutter as much info into a tiny space as possible. Why include meaningless info?

Very simple, I will ask a trainer who would know today when I go to the track, I will tell you what he says, he would know better than I would.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Very simple, I will ask a trainer who would know today when I go to the track, I will tell you what he says, he would know better than I would.

Cool, thanks.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Cool, thanks.

Its always better to ask someone who definitely knows than to guess. Suffolk in Mass also denotes Bute usage. I'm having a hard time believing that the rules are the same in all these states yet they only use the denotation in certain ones, it makes no sense. They put Lasix down in ALL jursidictions, why would bute be different?

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Do either of you guys ever admit you were plain wrong?! Yeah, the "aspirin the day before" analogy was "pretty clever". Too bad it had nothing to do with reality.

Corrected by both Cajungator and Rupert, but not a word from either of you about your mis-speaks.

--Dunbar

Well to dwell on the aspirin analogy further, if you took an aspirin say this afternoon for a headache it would show up tomorrow in a blood test, however, would the effect of that aspirin be felt the next day? The answer is no, trust me, I have Bute in 3 forms at home, tablet, paste, and injectable. I have had to administer it for various illness and injuries, and even in the most painfull of incidences requiring the largest dose, the efficiency is considerably diminished after 8 to 12 hours. It's no big deal having Bute the day before a race, or ever for that matter, we're not talking snail venom here.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a horse owner of any breed who doesn't have Bute in their tack rooms. It's like having Advil in our medicine cabinets.
I don't get why they even make a big deal over it, Lasix is FAR worse for a horse.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Very simple, I will ask a trainer who would know today when I go to the track, I will tell you what he says, he would know better than I would.

And?

--Dunbar

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Very simple, I will ask a trainer who would know today when I go to the track, I will tell you what he says, he would know better than I would.

And?

I thought it was going to be "very simple".

--Dunbar

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Very simple, I will ask a trainer who would know today when I go to the track, I will tell you what he says, he would know better than I would.

Oracle's trainer must have disappeared. That was written on Wednesday. Now it's Saturday, and still no report about what the trainer said. And of course, no admission from oracle that he might have been wrong about the Calif Bute rules.

--Dunbar