Belmont Entries for 5/29.... Very Poor

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

they are not any more appealing. just my opinion but if one bets every race they are a sucker anyway. instead of looking at the whole card ANYWHERE, why not pick your spots. i love these people that bet every race at every track. nobody is that good but so many are that compulsive. with the three days at belmont there will be more than enough opportunities. play the best races at both tracks. why waste energy crying over which is better.(i never cashed a ticket on that bet) are you people interested in making money or just like arguing about which card is better? boo hoo...don't bet it, then waste all your time and energy crying about it. yeah, thats a winning attitude.

You have to be in track management. If not, you really need to apply.

[richard]

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Kasept

They're very mediocre and according to your headline very poor? You've handicapped the card already and declared the racing poor and mediocre? Interesting...

Six of the events are a graded stake, 2 MSW's, a high price MDN CLM, and 2 ALW's (one OC) and that's 'poor'. You haven't looked at the fields for one second, and it obviously didn't occur to you to even look at the size of the fields, but it's fashionable to call the racing poor and mediocre, so why not? Take your money wherever you want, but your comment about this first of three big days of racing leading up to Met Mile, ahead of the Belmont meet's biggest day of racing, is just ignorant.

3 Maiden claimers on a Holiday weekend Saturday card and thats ok? Come on Steve, your fans expect you to be a little more non-partisan than that.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Do you believe that NYRA is holding back some great stash of better horses?

The horses that are available to PJ Campo right now are not the types they used to be. This isn't news to anyone and this card, unfortunately, is very typical of what has gone on over the last few months.

Is Campo doing a good job carding competitive races that make for good wagering affairs? Sure. Is he doing so with top shelf horses? No.

Go wager on Monmouth. Remember it too because next year when they've returned to anonymity with a fraction of their current purse structure they'll need you.

NT

And exactly why is this statement relevant to where we put our dollars this weekend and New York running 3 Maiden Claimer races on a Saturday weekend Holiday card? Tell Campo to talk to the Hammer, structure your best to be on a Saturday and structure your Wed-Fri to have the best chance of a Pck 6 carry into the weekend. Finally Customer Service 101, don't trash your customers (talk down to them) when they complain about the product. That happens all the time on this board.

[herkhorse]

maybe on a holiday weekend you want your best to be on the holiday, just thayin'.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by jms62

3 Maiden claimers on a Holiday weekend Saturday card and thats ok? Come on Steve, your fans expect you to be a little more non-partisan than that.

Non-partisan? I'm all for trying to prune racing schedules to enhance the product. Being supportive of NY doesn't preclude being negative about anything or anywhere else. Go find someone in the industry media more supportive of things than me. I simply find it bizarre that the NY cards are held under some special scrutiny. Where were these examinations of Monmouth's cards when they sucked year after year? Where are they regarding Kentucky, California and Illinois?

It's an intense sequence of racing in NY this Saturday through next Saturday. Every single card cannot be filled with ALW's and Stakes. Racing secretaries build their slates in as balanced a manner as they can when they are anticipating the kind of days coming up like Memorial Day and Belmont Day. They use the stock on the grounds. If there are tons of maidens on the grounds, state bred or otherwise, you run maiden races. There is also seasonality involved in the flow of the condition books. You run maiden races in the spring at Belmont so you can run ALW's in the summer at Saratoga. Ain't no ALW's if you don't have horses that haven't won...

And some thoughts on my 'partisanship'. I make no apologies for being especially supportive when it comes to New York racing. For one thing, this summer will be my 10th year working on the grounds of Saratoga. While not a NYRA employee, I was there through the arduous period of the pre-renewal of the franchise, and know the specifics of the franchise debate as well or better than anyone. And I know how hard most people at NYRA work to put on the best show possible. And most take the same pride I do in being part of the show (even in the tiny way my foodservice facility is part of the show).

I also know how the Pataki administration worked to prevent the Aqueduct VLT parlor from being built in an attempt to financially hamstring the Association so the "Friends of NY Racing"/Empire group could foist the franchise into their hands. That perverted attempt to gain the franchise and the racino for their own greedy purposes has placed NY racing and breeding in the position it's in right now. And the fact that the New York media was too lazy to investigate those specifics or willfully ignored them, is a disgrace.

Every schithole harness track in the state has their VLT parlor installed, and the most important facility that was approved a decade ago STILL SITS WAITING TO BE BUILT... Yet the editorial boards of the embarrassing newspapers here and downstate have failed to examine or decry why $1,000,000 a day in revenue has been missed for the past 2,920 or so days (Yeah.. roughly $3,000,000,00). As a taxpayer in NY, I wonder how there isn't an absolute uproar from the citizenry as to the whys and wherefores of this missed revenue opportunity.

New York racing and breeding should be at the apex of its' success and strength, and instead is being forced to nearly start over. I'm tired of the over the top smears and attacks on a group of people currently at NYRA that have nothing to do with Kenny Noe, Terry Meyocks, Barry Schwartz or anything that happened on the watch of other Association administrations. And I'm completely fed up with the inane, brainless spew I see daily elsewhere on the internet regarding NYRA, the VLT parlor, the state and the OTB situation. So if I'm 'partisan', I feel quite justified in being so.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Non-partisan? I'm all for trying to prune racing schedules to enhance the product. Being supportive of NY doesn't preclude being negative about anything or anywhere else. Go find someone in the industry media more supportive of things than me. I simply find it bizarre that the NY cards are held under some special scrutiny. Where were these examinations of Monmouth's cards when they sucked year after year? Where are they regarding Kentucky, California and Illinois?

It's an intense sequence of racing in NY this Saturday through next Saturday. Every single card cannot be filled with ALW's and Stakes. Racing secretaries build their slates in as balanced a manner as they can when they are anticipating the kind of days coming up like Memorial Day and Belmont Day. They use the stock on the grounds. If there are tons of maidens on the grounds, state bred or otherwise, you run maiden races. There is also seasonality involved in the flow of the condition books. You run maiden races in the spring at Belmont so you can run ALW's in the summer at Saratoga. Ain't no ALW's if you don't have horses that haven't won...

And some thoughts on my 'partisanship'. I make no apologies for being especially supportive when it comes to New York racing. For one thing, this summer will be my 10th year working on the grounds of Saratoga. While not a NYRA employee, I was there through the arduous period of the pre-renewal of the franchise, and know the specifics of the franchise debate as well or better than anyone. And I know how hard most people at NYRA work to put on the best show possible. And most take the same pride I do in being part of the show (even in the tiny way my foodservice facility is part of the show).

I also know how the Pataki administration worked to prevent the Aqueduct VLT parlor from being built in an attempt to financially hamstring the Association so the "Friends of NY Racing"/Empire group could foist the franchise into their hands. That perverted attempt to gain the franchise and the racino for their own greedy purposes has placed NY racing and breeding in the position it's in right now. And the fact that the New York media was too lazy to investigate those specifics or willfully ignored them, is a disgrace.

Every schithole harness track in the state has their VLT parlor installed, and the most important facility that was approved a decade ago STILL SITS WAITING TO BE BUILT... Yet the editorial boards of the embarrassing newspapers here and downstate have failed to examine or decry why $1,000,000 a day in revenue has been missed for the past 2,920 or so days (Yeah.. roughly $3,000,000,00). As a taxpayer in NY, I wonder how there isn't an absolute uproar from the citizenry as to the whys and wherefores of this missed revenue opportunity.

New York racing and breeding should be at the apex of its' success and strength, and instead is being forced to nearly start over. I'm tired of the over the top smears and attacks on a group of people currently at NYRA that have nothing to do with Kenny Noe, Terry Meyocks, Barry Schwartz or anything that happened on the watch of other Association administrations. And I'm completely fed up with the inane, brainless spew I see daily elsewhere on the internet regarding NYRA, the VLT parlor, the state and the OTB situation. So if I'm 'partisan', I feel quite justified in being so.

I agree with everything you say regarding the current state of affairs but if New York is the pinnacle of racing then why do you find it bizzare that its customers bitch about a Sat Holiday card with 3 Maiden Claimers? We expect/deserve more on a Sat Holiday weekend.

[Linny]

I tend to think this card is below par for a holiday weekend Saturday. I also think that by not having a dark day on Wed. they are spread even more thin.

Steve, I agree with your points about the politics but there is more than that. The game has changed dramatically over the last decade or so. The trend toward fewer races has tricked down from the graded stakes horses to listed stakes and allowance horses. The only horses running 10-15 times a year now are the cheap ones. That is what PJ and other racing secretaries have to contend with.

There was a time when they simply wouldn't run MDCL on grass so trainers with those horses went elsewhere. They didn't run $15kMDCLNYB so those horses went to Finger Lakes. There are alot of horses running at BEL this meet that 5-10 years ago would have been at the Lakes beating up horses that had just come out of a pasture in Genesseo, because they had recency. Now they stay in NY and win bad races. There have been races at BEL this year won by horses who will never break 50 on the Beyers, EVER. NY racing used to be elite, the pinnacle of racing on the east coast. Now, it is no different, day in and day out from any other venue.

NY has also handed over 2yo racing to KY. They will run the first 2yo's of the year today. They used to run 2yo stakes on Belmont weekend. Babies used to ease some of the stress of filling allowances and take the pressure off horses that had run all winter. If it were not for NYBreds, they might not be able to fill 2yo races 'til after July 4th. I'm not sure why this is since many of the KY baby races are overfilled and ames like Pletcher and Asmussen and others who run in NY are in them.

I am sure that PJ would love to fill Memorial Day weekend with allowances and stakes but any horse that ran in the last 2 weeks in those levels probablywon't be back for another 2-3 weeks. Presuming that Belmont day purses get the usual bump, many trainers will be pointing for next weekend.

While the handle at MON isn't level with that at BEL, they are up significanly from last year and it's fair to guess that some of that bump, is a loss to Belmont. Most players have a limited budget and wagers made and MON are wagers not made elsewhere.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Kasept

..... I make no apologies for being especially supportive when it comes to New York racing... And I know how hard most people at NYRA work to put on the best show possible...

...the Pataki administration worked to prevent the Aqueduct VLT parlor from being built in an attempt to financially hamstring the Association so the "Friends of NY Racing"/Empire group could foist the franchise into their hands. That perverted attempt to gain the franchise and the racino for their own greedy purposes has placed NY racing and breeding in the position it's in right now... And the fact that the New York media was too lazy to investigate those specifics or willfully ignored them, is a disgrace.

Every ... harness track in the state has their VLT parlor installed, and the most important facility that was approved a decade ago STILL SITS WAITING TO BE BUILT... Yet the editorial boards of the embarrassing newspapers here and downstate have failed to examine or decry why $1,000,000 a day in revenue has been missed for the past 2,920 or so days (Yeah.. roughly $3,000,000,00). As a taxpayer in NY, I wonder how there isn't an absolute uproar from the citizenry as to the whys and wherefores of this missed revenue opportunity.

... I'm tired of the over the top smears and attacks on a group of people currently at NYRA that have nothing to do with Kenny Noe, Terry Meyocks, Barry Schwartz or anything that happened on the watch of other Association administrations.... .

^^^ This is the type of info/opinion that the NY Horseplayers should be repeatedly sending in as "Letters To The Editor" to every newspaper, politician, and local TV Station in the State...

There are no doubt problems in the Racing Industry... I frequently hear horseplayers lament about being the lowest priority...about being an under-appreciated but important component of the industry...

The situation in NY is mostly a polictical one...many Horseplayers are constituents of the Politicians that are directly involved in the problem...Horseplayers have a little more leeway to rally public opinion... and/or to inform the non-horseplaying taxpayers/constituents of the huge amount of money the inept/corrupt politicians are failing to make available to the State budget/funds

One way of looking at it is.... if horseplayers are not part of the solution ....then they may well be part of the problem...

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

New York racing and breeding should be at the apex of its' success and strength, and instead is being forced to nearly start over.

No truer words have been spoken. Given the VLT fiasco, NYRA has been able to cobble together cards largely due to the large number of NY-breds born after the Funny Cide breeding boom here in the state. If they don't get that problem solved soon, there may not be a breeding industry here anymore. (All you have to do is check Jockey Club statistics and look at sales like the recent one in Timonium where there were as many PA-breds in the sale as NY-breds.) At a minimum, in the short run, the number of NY-breds born on an annual basis will have been cut in half from its high-water mark of a few years ago.

[jms62]

The powers that be need to create a TV commercial showing schools in disarray and the 1,000,000 dollars a day ticking upward on a chart.. Then end with a statement indicting Albany of dragging their feet for special interests while our children suffer... It'll get attention.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

No truer words have been spoken. Given the VLT fiasco, NYRA has been able to cobble together cards largely due to the large number of NY-breds born after the Funny Cide breeding boom here in the state. If they don't get that problem solved soon, there may not be a breeding industry here anymore. (All you have to do is check Jockey Club statistics and look at sales like the recent one in Timonium where there were as many PA-breds in the sale as NY-breds.) At a minimum, in the short run, the number of NY-breds born on an annual basis will have been cut in half from its high-water mark of a few years ago.

Remember, it was not just Funny Cide, but the promise of VLT revenue that drove the boom in NY. PA is seeing the same now, but they HAVE the slots already.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Linny

NY has also handed over 2yo racing to KY. They will run the first 2yo's of the year today. They used to run 2yo stakes on Belmont weekend. Babies used to ease some of the stress of filling allowances and take the pressure off horses that had run all winter. If it were not for NYBreds, they might not be able to fill 2yo races 'til after July 4th. I'm not sure why this is since many of the KY baby races are overfilled and ames like Pletcher and Asmussen and others who run in NY are in them.

Isn't this partly a function of the racing calendar? If a trainer in KY wants to test a 2YO in major venue, it has to get that 2YO ready early, or wait until Keeneland opens in October. More and more, NY trainers wait until Saratoga to unveil their babies.

Everyone seems to long for the "good old days," but 20 years ago, a track like Churchill Downs had really poor racing with allowance races going for half the purse that a race in NY went for. It was not until purses were significantly increased in the mid-1990s that Churchill and Keeneland really took off and started to have an impact upon NYRA's horse population. Delaware and Philadelphia didn't have comparable purses, and places like Mountaineer and Charles Town ran nothing but $2500 claimers.

The other aspect that has not been discussed here is the impact that another recent phenomonem, the mega-stables, are having upon the game. It's tough to get an allowance race to go with a large field when the horses eligible for the condition reside in only a handful of stables. Maybe the uncoupled entry rule will help, but I doubt it. I know it's a pipe dream nowadays, but racing would be far better off if no trainer had more than 40 horses. (As an aside, think about how remarkable Woody Stephens' Belmont record is given the size of his barn in the 1980s versus what Pletcher gets today.) The Pletchers of the world rarely turn down a horse, and if a horse can't excel at Belmont, they ship it to tracks like Delaware and Arlington so they can keep their win percentage up and not have to tell the owner that the horse is not MSW-worthy.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Linny

Remember, it was not just Funny Cide, but the promise of VLT revenue that drove the boom in NY. PA is seeing the same now, but they HAVE the slots already.

Agreed.

[philcski]

I went back and looked at what kind of cards they had the Saturday before the Belmont Stakes in '04, '05, '06, and '07 (before the recession- and PA slots- hit.)

May 29, 2004:
1) CLM 10K 1Mi 1/16th $17k (7 starters)
2) MSW 3U 7.5f $43k (8 starters)
3) ALW N1X 1Mi 1/16th Turf F&M 3U (6 starters)
4) CLM 30K 6f $27k (8 starters)
5) MSW 3U 1Mi $44k (6 starters)
6) ALW N1X 1Mi 1/8th 3U $46k (6 starters)
7) AOC 3U 1Mi 1/16th $56k (8 starters)
8) Sheepshead Bay-G2 $150k (7 starters)
9) MSW 3U 1Mi Turf $44k (11 starters)

June 4, 2005:
1) ALW N1X 1Mi $46k (5 starters)
2) NYB MSW 3U 6f F&M $41k (8 starters)
3) CLM 25k 1Mi $26k (6 starters)
4) NYB MSW 3U 7f $41k (8 starters)
5) ALW N1X 1Mi 1/8th (OFF TURF) $46k (4 starters)
6) NYB Stakes 6f $60k (6 starters)
7) ALW N2X 7f F&M $47k (6 starters)
8) Acorn Stakes-G1 (6 starters)
9) MSW 3U 1Mi 1/8th (OFF TURF) $44k (7 starters)

June 3, 2006:
1) NYB ALW N1X 1Mi 1/8th (OFF TURF) $44k (7 starters)
2) MSW 2YO 5 1/2f $45k (4 starters)
3) CLM 50K 6 1/2f $39k (5 starters)
4) MCL 30K 6f $17k (7 starters)
5) NYB ALW N1X 5 1/2f $44k (7 starters)
6) NYB MSW 3U 5 1/2f $44k (7 starters)
7) CLM 30k 7f $38k (7 starters)
8) Sands Point-G3 (OFF TURF) (4 starters)
9) NYB MSW 3U F&M $49.2k (11 starters)

June 2, 2007:
1) STR $50k 6f $43k (5 starters)
2) CLM $30k N2L 6f Turf F&M $25k (8 starters)
3) MSW 3U 6 1/2f $43k (5 starters- including the iron horse HEDGE FUND!)
4) NYB MSW 3U 6 1/2f $41k (9 starters)
5) CLM $30k 1Mi Turf $40k (9 starters)
6) NYB ALW N1X 6f Turf $43k (10 starters)
7) NYB Stakes F&M 1Mi $65k (7 starters)
8) Sands Point-G3 (6 starters)
9) NYB MSW 3U 6f Turf $43k (11 starters)


A few things. Clearly, these cards are better quality than what is being offered this Saturday, so the recession and other tracks are clearly hitting NYRA hard (the 2005 card had very short fields but I remember that day- it was pouring and there were a ton of scratches). Second, the proliferation of conditioned claiming races (which they rarely used to write) is a direct correlation to the increased number of MCL races (just like to have ALW's at SAR you need MSW's at BEL...) Third, there was an 'examination' of Monmouth's (often bad) cards for many years- which is why they averaged only $3.1MM in handle per day last year.

[NoLuvForPletch]

My opinion, as small amount of respect that it might get, is that they are running an awful lot of maiden races these days at BEL.

Last Sunday's card was particularly disturbing, 5 Maiden races (3msw, 2 mcl), 4 claiming races at 25k and down, and an allowance race. That's a Sunday card in May in NY?

Overall in May of the 160 races run, a total of 60 have been Maiden races (30 msw, 30 mcl). 37%

But in the past week or so the 19th-26th the numbers increase to 43% and instead of a 50-50 split btwn msw and mcl we've had 8 msw and 16 mcl, including 5 maiden claiming races on yesterday's card.

While some of these races might make for good betting races (if you like throwing darts), the quality is just not there.

[Travis Stone]

This is not just a Belmont trend, this is an industry trend. The lone exception is a one-year expcetion, and that's Monmouth (but they're not all allowance races either).

We are right in the middle of a changing shift in the overall quality of horse flesh this sport is producing.

Quantity (at the expense of quality) is becoming a big problem, especially when you consider breeder awards etc.

It makes more sense to breed 10 mares to a $2,000 stud than one mare to a $20,000 stud. The 10 mares, when factoring in rewards, have a greater chance of positive return than the one.

This weekend I'll see horses run for more money as Louisiana-breds than non-La-breds which are running for less but are likely faster.

The result of all this is cheaper races, which we have to get used to for the time being, from the top to the bottom.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

My opinion, as small amount of respect that it might get, is that they are running an awful lot of maiden races these days at BEL.

Last Sunday's card was particularly disturbing, 5 Maiden races (3msw, 2 mcl), 4 claiming races at 25k and down, and an allowance race. That's a Sunday card in May in NY?

Overall in May of the 160 races run, a total of 60 have been Maiden races (30 msw, 30 mcl). 37%

But in the past week or so the 19th-26th the numbers increase to 43% and instead of a 50-50 split btwn msw and mcl we've had 8 msw and 16 mcl, including 5 maiden claiming races on yesterday's card.

While some of these races might make for good betting races (if you like throwing darts), the quality is just not there.

It's not just that they're running a lot of maiden races or the same horses seem to be running all the time. It's more about the lack of quality in these maiden fields. By this I mean, for the most part, that there are some very bad horses running. I bet a lot of cheap tracks (relatively) so it's not about quality for me. What it's about is whether there are horses in a given race that have ABILITY. Too often at NYRA, presently, these maiden fields resemble the maiden fields of the AQU INNER --- there's no form to go by (other than NUMBERS --- for horses that are getting gapped.) It's about competition within races not about field size or quality of field.

Moreover, NYRA isn't the only track that has a limited pool of horses to deal with. So, it's common to see the same horses over and over. Yet other racing secretaries seem to find ways of keeping these races both interesting and competitive, and, more importantly, BETABLE. What they do is switch up on the distances. So, for example, over at CRC, you have the same plugs squaring off every 7-10 days but one week they're sprinting over 5.5F, next time they're going 7F, then 6F, then 6.5F or any combination of these. Campo still thinks he's under AQU INNER constraints and that 'SPRINT' means '6F'.

Most of the races presently at NYRA are just not betable.

[Buckpasser]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I didn't mean to respond so angrily... I apologize. But recognize that Sat, Sun, Mon and then next Fri and Sat has to feature probably 53-55 races including 13 stakes, so the absolute highest quality racing may be saved for certain segments or sequences on the various cards.

But I'm troubled by the perception that the 'class' of the races Saturday are somehow instantly 'poor' because they're maiden races. How is a field of 12 New Jersey bred dime claimers any better or more appealing than 10 NY bred maidens?

No need to apologize. My only point is bettors would like to have a fair shot with "form*" running horses, so when there are so many maiden races on a card how does one bet the exotics or make a straight W/P/S bet? It becomes very frustrating and eventually a turn-off to putting your money thru the parimutuels window.

* form = subjective

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

It's not just that they're running a lot of maiden races or the same horses seem to be running all the time. It's more about the lack of quality in these maiden fields. By this I mean, for the most part, that there are some very bad horses running. I bet a lot of cheap tracks (relatively) so it's not about quality for me. What it's about is whether there are horses in a given race that have ABILITY. Too often at NYRA, presently, these maiden fields resemble the maiden fields of the AQU INNER --- there's no form to go by (other than NUMBERS --- for horses that are getting gapped.) It's about competition within races not about field size or quality of field.

Moreover, NYRA isn't the only track that has a limited pool of horses to deal with. So, it's common to see the same horses over and over. Yet other racing secretaries seem to find ways of keeping these races both interesting and competitive, and, more importantly, BETABLE. What they do is switch up on the distances. So, for example, over at CRC, you have the same plugs squaring off every 7-10 days but one week they're sprinting over 5.5F, next time they're going 7F, then 6F, then 6.5F or any combination of these. Campo still thinks he's under AQU INNER constraints and that 'SPRINT' means '6F'.

Most of the races presently at NYRA are just not betable.

1000% agree with this... not every race is the Kentucky Derby, nor can it be, and it doesn't have to be. A balanced field of 10 $20k Claimers is very bettable and interesting to me. They aren't running these type of races anymore. They've been replaced by N2L's going 6F on the turf, which quite frankly are not interesting to me or most others.

('bettable' has two 't's' though i think)